Community Conversations > Transgender Topics
Sex, gender, sexual orientation, dogma and double standards
zirconia:
I woke up much much too early last morning, and browsed through a few forums.
Cookie cutter replies trouble me. This time there were a few questions that revolved around sexuality. The standard response to those appears to be an instant
"Sexual orientation is an innate trait completely separate from gender!!!"
Followed by something like:
"The point of transitioning is to just become what you are!!!"
Hmmm... OK.
But why do the responders then usually go on to:
- Gently or not so gently criticise the original poster for even asking such questions.
- Expound trans theory... rainbows, spectrums and such...
- And describe and justify their own orientation...
Yes.
There are variations in sexual orientation. At least two, I guess.
But... like "gender," I think it logical for it to in general be at least loosely correlated to...
What?
And why get so defensive?
And... if sexual orientation is innate then why do so many happy new lesbians not happily separate to accommodate their quite non-lesbian spouses, and instead try to convert them to lesbianism?
Dena:
Normally with a post like this, my reply would be something I heard about 6 or 7 years ago.
Gender identity is who you go to bed as.
Sexual preference is who you go to bed with.
You have gone a step farther in your questioning that people normally do so I need to expand on it. We know with gender identity it's possible to suppress your true self. The proof of this is late transitions who for years live with their birth gender before making the decision to transition.
Sexual preference is a bit more difficult. People are bisexual and some guess suggest that a third of the population could be bisexual. Even if a person isn't bisexual, it still possible to suppress their natural desire only to deal with it latter in life.
As for couples, I have seen it go both ways. In some of the couples, the original wife is either bisexual or lesbian so the marriage remains together and possibly stronger than before. Other times, the original wife is unable to deal with it and the marriage ends or they agree to remain together as roommates.
Interestingly though, most of the time it's different for FTMs and the relationship is more likely to break up because the original husband is unable to deal with the change.
There is no simple rule that applies to this and each case needs to be evaluated by the couple to determine what is the best outcome for both of then.
Maddie:
Zirconia, I get where you're coming from here. And the other place.
I think gender and orientation are connected in my case. But I'm only getting a little bit at a time. So I don't totally know yet I think if I was strongly gay I would have had relationships like that. I could have but I didn't.
Being heterosexual seems natural to me, yet my early experiences with females made me ill. I had to adapt a mind trick to exist in the hetero style I was immersed in socially and comfortable with.
People in my formative years who actually knew and accepted non passing mtf transexuals expressed disapproval towards them if they wanted to be with women. This is counter to the "rainbow" stance you described in your post. It is part of my core beliefs that I am now viewing as unessential to moving forward, accepting myself and others.
When I finally broke down and made this life decision, I went from hetero to asexual (I think that's right). But the past year of hormones, and seeing myself look and act a little more feminine, is slowly breaking down my guards. I have a sense and hope that there is a trove of living energy, mostly locked away, that will continue to reveal itself and flow if I stay this course.
I'm smiling now.
A possible reason for clinging to beliefs, especially the "new lesbian wants their spouse to turn lesbian" thing could be that they're desperately hanging onto security. Perhaps even pledging lesbianism (is it a word?) to demonstrate their loyalty to their wedding vows. Like "I need to be a woman, but I promised I'd never leave you...my love for you is and was real...so don't leave me...we can still be together like this...I don't want to die another day of this life..."
I'm rooting for any couple willing to take this on.
If one has been primarily in sexual relationships with woman it might be logical to think that things would stay that way. Thus some of the arguments for separation of gender and sexual orientation..?
But what happens when things get further along? How many times can the script be revised before it burns up?
Changes change things.
Kiera:
--- Quote from: Maddie on June 24, 2020, 05:45:59 PM ---Changes change things.
--- End quote ---
Three simultaneous posts! I concur with Maddie's conclusion/shorter answer follows:
--- Quote from: zirconia on June 24, 2020, 03:10:32 PM ---in general be at least loosely correlated to...
What?
--- End quote ---
lol ok I'll bite . . "learned behavior" (not or "innate" due hormones only?) based on experience and, to a lesser degree, gender expectations? Mentioned earlier how in HS was convinced "liked girls not gay" . . until a certain boy initiated sexual advances of his own?
--- Quote ---And... if sexual orientation is innate then why . . try to convert them to lesbianism?
--- End quote ---
Because, on a very basic level, the trans-identified person obviously feels, attraction wise, that nothing has really changed? My beef with the "lesbian adopting" cry of losing an otherwise "beloved female spouse" is, in practice, what can the "new woman" do that "the original man" could not?
In other words if "good lesbian sex" pre-transition perhaps chances of keeping her "after" would have been much greater too? But, I suspect, THAT is not usually the case. I fail to see how anyone can simply declare "i'm a lezzy" without any real experience of lesbianism at all?
--- Quote from: Dena on June 24, 2020, 05:16:17 PM ---Interestingly though, most of the time it's different for FTMs . .
--- End quote ---
Could that be because the whole basis of "attraction" between men and women is different in the first place? People talk about "loving the person" (not the sex) but I submit that's more a female trait dependant on how they make her feel whereas men tend to place more value on strictly "visual appearance", seeking out more tender/emotional qualities he obviously might not find in himself?
Opposites attract; one desires and, the other, an object. As much as I've learned to enjoy the advances of men never really understood the "gay" thing because the type attraction was not reciprocal; one could say my "heterosexuality" is based on the gender that is most naturally attracted to mine? Which in turn is "fluid", adaptive but, ultimately, would still not make me "bi". While always enjoyed the attention of younger girls as a male the initiating sexual impulse was just not there whereas, with men of course, prefer being the pursued object of desire is preferable instead.
Is it a "target-location-error" only if a woman seeks beauty elsewhere, or not at all, rather than cultivate it within herself?
(my chief objection to "older woman" is attitude and not working
at that which was otherwise given naturally, something us
transgirls don't 'ave the luxury of neglecting)
zirconia:
Thank you, Dena
Gender identity...
I've thought about that many times since I was sent to evaluation. Most of the "identity options" in the questionnaires felt foreign. Some even amusing.
I chose "woman" because in that situation nothing else made sense. I did need to be a woman. Which is why I needed help. But... I had a male body. That's what defined my sex. Thus I was a boy. A youth. A man. Each more horrible than the previous. That was physical reality.
As for identity... I was just me. I very much needed to be a woman. But physical reality stated I wasn't.
I went to ask for help because I was not a woman regardless of what others saw. And I needed a way out of the twilight zone. I needed to be fixed.
Later, with help, I realized I'd been standing right next to the exit all along. And that surgery can fix what is physically wrong.
But I still go to bed as the same me. Only a lot happier. LOL
As for the rest... yes. Some like men. Some women. Some both, I guess, but I'm pretty sure they also have a preference. And sure, there are wives who accept their transitioned husbands. Although many other transitioners seem to try to hold on forever before finally giving up.
My real question was why are questions pertaining to the subject generally met so defensively? And even hostilely?
After all, what is just is... there's no need to justify what is natural, so the defensiveness to me would seem to indicate some sort of conflict.
Maddie,
I'm very glad you're smiling... （╹◡╹）♡
You may well be right about why some transitioners wish to stay with their wives.
And yes... changes do change things.
Kiera,
--- Quote from: Kiera on June 24, 2020, 06:08:18 PM ---lol ok I'll bite . . "learned behavior" (not innate) based on experience and, to a lesser degree, gender expectations?
--- End quote ---
Interesting... but might not hormones also have something to do with it? If one has the natural propensity, that is?
--- Quote from: Kiera on June 24, 2020, 06:08:18 PM ---I fail to see how anyone can simply declare "i'm a lezzy" without any real experience of lesbianism at all?
--- End quote ---
LOL... Yes.
Might that not be equally true of other things as well?
Edit: clarity
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