Author Topic: Another Elephant... or, A Forbidden Fact  (Read 180 times)

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Online zirconia

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Another Elephant... or, A Forbidden Fact
« on: June 30, 2020, 08:56:53 PM »
I recently had an interesting and friendly discussion with someone on another board in regard to transition, facial feminization surgery, and assimilation.

The person I spoke with did not originally want to get FFS. But in the end frequently getting "read" bothered her so much she decided to do it. She felt the environment where she works, with a high trans* population and a trans* nightspot just three blocks away may have contributed to people's heightened awareness and alertness.

She also separately commented that the increasing awareness in general makes it harder to attain stealth and get assimilated now than in the past. I sympathized, adding the obvious observation that in this sense the needs of those who wish to be out and proud are not in accord with those who only wish to live anonymously.

This was my closing comment:

That is tragic, and you may be right about the out and proud environment close to where you lived having been a factor.
In that sense, it would seem to me those who wish to just be anonymous and normal and those who are proud of and wish to proclaim their otherness truly do have conflicting needs.
And the ones who just wish to get assimilated always get the short end of the stick.


The struck out portions were promptly censored... LOL as were some other portions that also pointed out  the inevitable conflict.
The reasons given were as follows:

If you disapprove of people who are Transgender, Gay, Lesbian, or Bisexual; or activities which, or individuals who cross gender boundaries; take your arguments to a more appropriate website.
and
Suggesting or claiming that one segment or sub-segment of our community is more or less legitimate, deserving, or real than any others.


LOL. I disapproved of no-one. And that those who do wish to be assimilated are put in an increasingly disadvantaged position by society's increased alertness is an incontrovertible fact. And in that sense, it would truly seem to me those who wish to just be anonymous and normal and those who are proud of and wish to proclaim their otherness truly do have conflicting needs.

But... that subject seems to be anathema in the transosphere.


I had to laugh at the further justification... note the words I underlined below.

Quote
While yes someone being out and proud may initially make things harder on you wanting to be stealth, it makes things easier and safer for us and for people yet to come out down the road. People fear what they don't understand.

To me this seems a clear suggestion that "the sub-segment of our community" that wishes to be assimilated is less deserving than others. Which makes the second reason given rather hypocritical.

My points were directed at the collateral damage caused by activism. Not individuals. And given activism's ongoing goal to continuously increase awareness, the word "initially" in the response seems extremely contradictory. Does the responder have inside information that the activists at some point intend to lower people's awareness in order to help those who wish to be assimilated? And if so, is she willing to explain how do they intend to do that?

The conversation is still ongoing, so I'll update this if it turns out I am wrong... or if something else amusing comes up. Or if I'm banned...

---

Ah...❤️❤️❤️
An update...

I just received what the site owner states is the final word on the matter... and her reply once again completely ignores the fact that the moderation action itself clearly violates the site's own TOS. Here it is:

Quote
You post violated the terms and condition of the site. It was properly moderated. That is the end of it.

I guess some subgroups may be considered less deserving with impunity... LOL

“All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”― George Orwell, Animal Farm

Offline Kiera

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Re: Another Elephant... or, A Forbidden Fact
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2020, 03:13:50 AM »
I recently had an interesting and friendly discussion. But...that subject seems to be anathema in the transosphere.

     The BORG is not pretty z how dare you desire assimilation with the enemy 'humanity'! You WILL join our collective, 'individualism' is dead, or else YOU will not be associated with US at all! (How true can only wish?)
Quote
""

Thai MtF's? They do not seem to tolerate "LGBT" very well at all! That part 'bout "detransition" is probably true per "family demands", it's a choice that many later do make as, unlike here, a "late transitioner" is practically unheard of due to their "society's standards" being much . . (what's the word?) higher more "normal/traditional" than ours?
[quote from hsts in Singapore]
"I do not know any lesbian or older transitioners
in real life in Singapore but they do exist, but rarely
are given the go ahead to transtion."

(ps: lol Never mind what they actually say do I indeed love Trump and Fox news simply because of the talented, beautiful women they seem to hire? Whatever happened to "natural selection" apparently, if one cannot make it as either "a man" or "a woman", you can always join the whiny, poor me let's demonstrate 'crats instead?)

« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 02:14:14 AM by Kiera »

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Offline Dena

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Re: Another Elephant... or, A Forbidden Fact
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2020, 03:48:45 PM »
Welcome to the world of over moderation. I can tell you who made the decision and this is far from the first misjudgment to happen. In the past there were several less biassed people in the loop and this would would have never been acted on. The person who made the initial call has no idea of what's involved in remaining in the background because they have always been public.

I have seen people who had to disrupt their life and move on several times to reestablish a stealth identity. The basic rule we have lived by for years of never outing another has been forgotten. Indirectly this applies to a group outing as well as an individual outing.

I feared something like this would become a problem when Jenner came out. Suddenly a spot light was on us. People started looking more closely for flaws. Women were sometimes called MTF even thought they were born female. Bathrooms which we never had much of a problem with had bathroom laws passed. People made games outing transgender people. In some cases it became more difficult to alter your birth certificate.

I am not sure why Jenner went public but by going public, it became much more difficult for those who wished to fade into the wood work.

You are right and the call made by the others was wrong. Unfortunately you will have to live with the decision as long as you continue to use the site. I speak from experance on this as they are unwilling to look at things from other viewpoints once their mind is made up.
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Online zirconia

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Re: Another Elephant... or, A Forbidden Fact
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2020, 04:19:36 PM »
Hi Dena

Welcome to the world of over moderation. I can tell you who made the decision and this is far from the first misjudgment to happen. In the past there were several less biassed people in the loop and this would would have never been acted on. The person who made the initial call has no idea of what's involved in remaining in the background because they have always been public.

LOL. True.

I have seen people who had to disrupt their life and move on several times to reestablish a stealth identity. The basic rule we have lived by for years of never outing another has been forgotten. Indirectly this applies to a group outing as well as an individual outing.

Yes. Which is why I need to move after surgery. It's just not the same.

You are right and the call made by the others was wrong. Unfortunately you will have to live with the decision as long as you continue to use the site. I speak from experance on this as they are unwilling to look at things from other viewpoints once their mind is made up.

Thank you. Yes.

Sometimes I just can't resist speaking the truth, though. Even if quietly. A bad habit, I guess... ٩(๑❛ᴗ❛๑)۶

Offline Kiera

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Re: Another Elephant... or, A Forbidden Fact
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2020, 02:54:45 AM »
Yes. Which is why I need to move after surgery. It's just not the same.  ٩(๑❛ᴗ❛๑)۶

     z do you truly believe that? That people still give up everything, move away just to attain total stealth? How many people do you think have absolutely nothing to lose? Does anybody? Or you? What about "family"?

If you live in a "liberal" area then I'd say yes, definitely
move, but then again not just for "stealth" reasons with
overall safety & security being my biggest concern.

I find that to be a scary thought even when younger it was NEVER an option with me. Even after FFS your other forum friend wasn't totally successful were you suggesting it's because of where she chose to remain? A more openly liberal, politically "active" area like in a larger city?
Quote from: Karen
"

Also always considered myself fortunate to have lived in more educated & affluent conservative areas that are more "accepting" of diversity overall.

And what is SRS really going to accomplish? What do you think will change? Possibly better sex life only? But not "disclose"? FFS is definitely not "the holy grail" have a close friend in "group" who also did a BA with Dr "O" and was very unhappy with the results, still is to this day with many "regrets".

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Online zirconia

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Re: Another Elephant... or, A Forbidden Fact
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2020, 06:02:35 AM »
Hi Kiera
The BORG is not pretty z how dare you desire assimilation with the enemy 'humanity'! You WILL join our collective, 'individualism' is dead, or else YOU will not be associated with US at all! (How true can only wish?)

LOL... yes. It's an apt description.

     z do you truly believe that? That people still give up everything, move away just to attain total stealth? How many people do you think have absolutely nothing to lose? Does anybody? Or you? What about "family"?

It depends on what one wants, I guess. I have no plans to cut ties to my family, if that's what you mean. But... here's what I recently told someone when the necessity for stealth was brought to question:

"Despite the very "permissive" and "inclusive" environments I move in I see a change in people's expressions and attitudes when they see my documents. Or when I'm suddenly outed by some well-meaning idiot at a dinner party as an example of how "easy" and "natural" the change from a man to a woman is, and how "it doesn't matter." Sure, I could live with that if I were on a mission to make this commonplace. But it's not commonplace. I never was able to be a man... and don't want to be reminded of it every time when walking down a village street, able to tell by subtle signs which people I greet see me as a woman and which as a woman who used to not be.

Not to even speak of situations like visiting an Islamic university to assess some work they wanted done. Someone who knew slipped a wrong pronoun in Arabic. Luckily the host accepted the explanation that I was too good to be considered a mere girl. But it was NOT nice."



Kiera... I can't yet claim to "pass," because when I went to buy some underwear last year the shopkeeper asked whether I'd been measured. Not when. And of course I'm not yet whole. But I am pretty close when clothed. My mother's friends ask why she gave me a boys' name. My cousins mistake me for my sister. And when I try to vote I'm told I've brought the wrong ID.

But... there are people who know. And the word spreads. I can tell when someone new has heard. On the surface the difference is subtle. But in reality for me it feels devastating.


I guess many on these boards wouldn't care. Everyone I know still likes me. My super conservative best friend's family laughs at how natural the switch was. The neighborhood... my work associates... it was a non-event for everyone. Because I changed nothing. And nothing changed. Nothing at all except...

I'm a woman. Although incomplete.


But while some guys who knew me as a boy flirt with me, and life is good, and the man I'm a bit in love with absolutely knows, and it makes no overt difference in anyones attitude or feelings... they all have known me as a boy, no matter how weird a boy.


And when I'm where no-one does know, the difference is unmistakeable. It's the difference between mountain air and city air. Between tap water and spring water. Between the scent of pines and an air freshener. The layer of otherness is tangible if one knows how different everything feels without it.

And... it's not at all a question of diversity. Diversity equates to otherness. And to me it's one of the main ingredients of the twilight zone. The false, inadequate destination that so terrified me.


And what is SRS really going to accomplish? What do you think will change? Possibly better sex life only? But not "disclose"?

LOL... what it is going to change? Hmmm...

I don't really know how to explain this well without being very explicit. But when I'm touched by someone I like... or even in the same room... I know what I want. And it's not anal sex. Nor mutual masturbation. Or anything else I guess might make homosexuals happy. It's something I can't have.

And where I feel what I feel is not where men feel things like that. And what I now have is not what I've ever wanted.

I was once brought to my senses by the blood. And the pain cleared my brain. But it wasn't the pain that stopped me. The pain was bearable. It was the realization that I'd just end up making it look and feel even more awful. And that it wouldn't solve the basic problem.

Changing all that... is I guess what I hope SRS will accomplish.


Where "disclosure" is concerned... I've not really even thought about it. Curious, now that you mention it. But it's not a current issue, I guess. And it would definitely destroy stealth. So I guess it would mean moving away every time I meet someone new I like and it doesn't work out. LOL

FFS is definitely not "the holy grail" have a close friend in "group" who also did a BA with Dr "O" and was very unhappy with the results, still is to this day with many "regrets".

As for FFS... Yes. It doesn't always solve everything. Or sadly sometimes anything. And it's not really on my short list... LOL. I don't generally even wear makeup these days. I think the last time I did anything more than even out my eyebrows was when I showed a friend how to do it. And as I recall that was just half my face. 

Because, as I mentioned earlier, at this point, at least until SRS I need to feel the reassurance of being categorized as female just as I am, regardless of what I wear or do.

I hope this makes sense...

Edit: Clarity&Accuracy
« Last Edit: July 03, 2020, 02:08:04 AM by zirconia »

Offline karen_A

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Re: Another Elephant... or, A Forbidden Fact
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2020, 07:07:35 AM »
If you live in a "liberal" area then I'd say yes, definitely
move, but then again not just for "stealth" reasons with
overall safety & security being my biggest concern.


The sounds strange to me... I live in a liberal state and area with a highly educated population. I have never felt unsafe in a liberal area ... in fact even before other areas of the country (or teh state as whole) had them, the city where I worked had anti-discrimination laws. When I transitioned on the job I did not have to worry about losing it or even bathroom issues.

Getting read does not mean one is being threatened... I just did don't want an asterisk next to my womanhood for teh rest of my life.

The only I did have an issue was in a more conservative area early on (a few months after going full time) . I had to go to a contract manufacturing site in a more rural much less liberal area. I had stoped on the way home for dinner (it was long drive back) at a chain restaurant that had a bar... I sat in the dinning room in a booth.

 An obviously blue collar guy came over and just plopped himself down  uninvited in my both and started harassing me... As it was early (about 5PM) the place was otherwise empty and I got very nervous and retreated to the Lady's Room... when I came out he was still there and started in again... I was afraid he was going to follow me out, but the bartender (who obviously knew him) told him to back off and he finally did... thank goodness!

If one passes well one may be OK in a very conservative area. If it ever gets out, while those that know you well may be OK, if words gets out into wider circles things may not turn out well.

I definitely feel safer in majority liberal areas... Even if I passed perfectly that is where I would still want to live.

-karen


Offline Kiera

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Re: Another Elephant... or, A Forbidden Fact
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2020, 12:01:14 PM »
I hope this makes sense...

 :)  ;) It does! Happy for you only makes me want more too . . but will continue to work within my "family boundries" of . . .

Same person, same friends just different sex?


If one passes well one may be OK in a very conservative area . . I definitely feel safer in majority liberal areas...

Well hey Karen! Welcome just noticed your post! Disagree as to "where's best" but happy your here!


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Online zirconia

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Re: Another Elephant... or, A Forbidden Fact
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2020, 04:09:50 PM »
Same person, same friends just different sex?

Yes...♡
And isn't that the point?

I've never understood the double lives. The "part time."  The "presentation." A different name when "dressed."
It all sounded just... alien.

I've mentioned this before, but it grated on me when the therapist I was assigned mentioned "finding your womanhood" or something like that. That wasn't what I needed. What bothered me was my body. It was what made me male. It was the pivot and shackle to which all else was chained.

And that's why when at the end of the first meeting the psychiatrist said I'd always been a girl I cried.

If I was a girl I could be fixed. All it would take was surgery.

Edit: Clarity & accuracy
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 05:51:18 PM by zirconia »

Offline Complete

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Re: Another Elephant... or, A Forbidden Fact
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2020, 08:25:21 PM »
Quote from Karen:
Quote
Getting read does not mean one is being threatened... I just did don't want an asterisk next to my womanhood for teh rest of my life
Yet isn't that exactly what you did end up with when you transitioned on the job in front of god and everybody?
Isn't that why it still haunts you and you can't even come close to imagining what it is like NOT having that little monkey on your back....much less even believing it might even be possible..

Offline karen_A

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Re: Another Elephant... or, A Forbidden Fact
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2020, 03:59:10 PM »
Quote from Karen:Yet isn't that exactly what you did end up with when you transitioned on the job in front of god and everybody?

Back then there doing anything else would have been a disaster, and likely would have resulted in not being able to have SRS, never mind FFS... and never mind dealing with my responsibilities.

Quote
Isn't that why it still haunts you and you can't even come close to imagining what it is like NOT having that little monkey on your back....much less even believing it might even be possible..

All I will say is you're wrong. i will not go into why as I am pretty sure you would dismiss what I would say.

To me it looks like your post was not to discuss the topic of the thread but to go at me personally to try and put me on the defensive and discredit some of what i say...

I may be wrong about that, but I have seen this game before, and long ago learned it's best not to play...

So once again this is yet another area that I think engaging more with you on this would be pointless.

-karen

Offline Complete

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Re: Another Elephant... or, A Forbidden Fact
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2020, 05:55:41 PM »
All I will say is you're wrong. i will not go into why as I am pretty sure you would dismiss what I would say.

To me it looks like your post was not to discuss the topic of the thread but to go at me personally to try and put me on the defensive and discredit some of what i say...

I may be wrong about that, but I have seen this game before, and long ago learned it's best not to play...

So once again this is yet another area that I think engaging more with you on this would be pointless.

Actually, I am trying very hard to keep this from becoming personal, which is pretty difficult when that is what you seem to think it is about.

Everyone transitions in their own way, for their own reasons.
Obviously outcomes will also differ.

Take for example your latest reply. You say this was the only way to transition for you. My point being NOT that it was in any way "wrong", but that it resulted in less than desirable results. Let's reread what we wrote.

Isn't that why it still haunts you and you can't even come close to imagining what it is like NOT having that little monkey on your back....much less even believing it might even be possible.

All I will say is you're wrong. i will not go into why as I am pretty sure you would dismiss what I would say."

I do understand you took the way you felt to be the only one possible for you. Again, my response was to state not that it was wrong, but that it was not optimal. Why do you assert I am wrong, but yet refuse to explain or substantiate your assertion? On the assumption I will "dismiss" your response?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2020, 11:22:05 PM by Complete »

Offline Christine

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Re: Another Elephant... or, A Forbidden Fact
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2020, 12:19:25 PM »
Hi Folks,                      07 July 2020

I cannot comment on what is correct for anyone other than myself; I am not stealth nor can I ever be. Had I transitioned at a much younger age it might have been possible. I started medically at 77.5, Now at 79.92, I'll never attain that dream. So I live with what I have attained so far.

What was my goal? It is/was to be as much of what I had always wanted to be as possible, but never fully acted upon until March 2018. How far am I going to go? I really don't know; there are many variables that will play a roll in my decisions. I have to be realistic, I'm a late starter and cannot attain what you all have accomplished. Am I jealous or envious of you all? No, but I do wish I would have attained some of what you all have.

I know from what some of you have written, you have paid a very heavy price to get where you are. You all should be applauded for doing so and accomplishing what you have. You each have attained womanhood in your own way and by your own perseverance. No one should criticize you for how you managed your transition or how you are now living. If you are happy, isn't that one of our primary goals?

If anyone needs to criticize someone, how about criticizing me; I could use it.

Wishing You All a Very Happy Life.

Best Always, Love

Christine
Worrying Never Makes It Better.

Online zirconia

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Re: Another Elephant... or, A Forbidden Fact
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2020, 04:03:49 PM »
Hi, Christine

Thanks for your kind intervention... although I believe no-one's criticized anyone ٩(๑❛ᴗ❛๑)۶

Complete commented that transitioning in situ and staying there means that neighbors, friends, acquaintances, colleagues and everyone else you continue to associate with will know your past, which makes it impossible to not be known with an asterisk behind one's name and sex.

And suggested that it results in the discomfort and regret of knowing one is not seen fully and merely as a woman.

Karen replied that it's the only way she could have done it, and that Complete is wrong... but that she feels that should she elaborate Complete would just dismiss it—so she would not. And stated concern that Complete doesn't wish to hold a real discussion, but to get at her.

To which Complete responded that she did not want it to go personal, and wasn't saying Karen's way of transitioning was wrong, but that it couldn't bring the best results possible. And expresses unhappiness about Karen's assumption she would just dismiss any response.

As for criticizing you... no. LOL

Offline Christine

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Re: Another Elephant... or, A Forbidden Fact
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2020, 06:00:02 PM »
Hi @zirconia,                      07 July 2020

I gave up trying to please everyone long ago. The Only Person I Love With All My Heart and Soul is the One I try my best to please; She is Paramount in my life. There are others I love but not to the extent of my Love for Her. What other people think of me is something I have no desire to control. It is after all, for the time being anyway, still a free country.

IMO, too many of us spend too much time worrying about what others think. All I want is for Dena to be Happy. If She is happy then I'll also be Happy.

Life is quite complex; we don't need to make it more so.

Best Always, Love

Christine
Worrying Never Makes It Better.

Online zirconia

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Re: Another Elephant... or, A Forbidden Fact
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2020, 06:59:18 PM »
Hi Christine

Thank you. I'm glad you have Dena. And hope both of you are and will always be happy.

I like simple as well. Which is why I have no need or desire to change the world. It's much nicer to fit in.

Offline karen_A

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Re: Another Elephant... or, A Forbidden Fact
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2020, 07:23:03 PM »
To which Complete responded that she did not want it to go personal, and wasn't saying Karen's way of transitioning was wrong, but that it couldn't bring the best results possible. And expresses unhappiness about Karen's assumption she would just dismiss any response.

And if you read all of her other responses to me on all the other threads I have posted, that post of her's in this one is rather incongruous.

Many years ago i would have (and did) go into detail to some on line who seemed  to have the same attitudes that she seems to ... I did that because of MY need to be understood by others who have gone through transition and have made it to a more normal life (or so they say... this is the net after all) ...

But that is not the place I'm in now. I have no need to justify my decisions and my life to anyone else.

In any case trying to explain a complex set of factors would not change anything in this situation IMO. The past has told me that people who seem to have the attitudes I think i see, would just dismiss them anyway.

My time is better spent doing other things.

-karen


Offline Complete

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Re: Another Elephant... or, A Forbidden Fact
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2020, 07:58:57 PM »
So here is my take on this. I could not possibly care less how others live their lives. I really have to think that those who think l might have even a gnats ass amount of concern, have some serious issues.
This post, by Zirconia,was about the following:
Quote from Zirconia's initial post on this thread:
Quote
those who do wish to be assimilated are put in an increasingly disadvantaged position by society's increased alertness is an incontrovertible fact. And in that sense, it would truly seem to me those who wish to just be anonymous and normal and those who are proud of and wish to proclaim their otherness truly do have conflicting needs.

The thread seemed to go sideways when l strongly disputed the assertion from Karen that despite transitioning on the job, keeping that job and her wife intact and outwardly changing nothing but her presentation, "stealth" was something she might even remotely understand.
If disputing a false narrative is something to be dismissed then I will assert that this in itself speaks volumes about those unwilling or unable to defend that false narrative.
Yes. I had a great deal to lose. I l lost it willingly despite the pain and the unimaginable cost. Nevertheless, that was my cross to bear and l bore it thankfully as the price paid for the freedom to live my life as that happy simple woman that l simply am.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 11:59:29 AM by Complete »