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Unfinished early morning ramblings... or, What is the meaning of "real?"
zirconia:
So... it's early morning. I have a bit of time on my hands. Nothing to do yet but sip coffee, think and relax... LOL. So I checked some other boards, reading just the titles and opened one.
"Passing", "not passing", "self-acceptance..."
Nothing new. A familiar subject that just about everyone active there seems to have lovingly contributed to.
Comradeship is nice. I also love my friends. But the condition I've been diagnosed with isn't something I want to spend much of my life on. In fact it's something I'd prefer to spend very little of my life on. Isn't that why I need treatment? Why I finally ended up asking for help? The pain was ever present. I want it to end. I want transition to be short. As short as possible. I want to leave it behind.
And... I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. But... somehow the never-ending chorus of commiseration I see wherever trans* crowds gather would almost seem to perpetuate it. Celebrate it.
In a way "the community" seems akin to an athletic team, whose members all cheer for each other while forever warming up for the games. Readying for life. But no-one starts playing. Rather, they go stretch, jog a bit, and come back either all excited or unhappy. Every little thing can be a wonderful conversation starter. Every little mishap something "everyone" can "relate" to. A seed for a philosophical pep rally.
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe everyone is concentrating on the game, and only comes to report when something wonderfully special happens.
But no... the subjects belie that. Passing. Buying clothes. Discrimination. Makeup. What underwear is best. How do you close your bra... ugh. Passing. Passing. Non-passing. Acceptance. Civil rights. Transgender rights. Terminology! Political correctness! Male fail....
Self-acceptance is more important than passing.
Society must be changed.
Our rights must be protected
Discrimination...
Societal norms are too restrictive.
Standards of conventional beauty are bigoted and chauvinistic
Male / female are not binary because gender is a spectrum
Transgender women are "Real Women"
Ugh. I feel my pleasant restfulness dissipating. Maybe some more coffee might help...
Let me tell you a story.
There's a fermented sweet wine used for seasoning where I grew up that has a lovely freshness that does not cloy. If I wrote the name out as it should be you probably couldn't pronounce it, so let's just call it "Seasoning."
There's also a flavored sugar solution available whose brand name is (fanfare) "Real Seasoning."
And canned cheap fish prepared to resemble a more rare and precious one sold under the brand name "Real Fish."
And a sharp grated spice made of another root and tinted with food coloring to match whose brand name is "Real Spice."
They're all perfectly good products. The ones without the "Real" prefix are just more expensive. And have a more complex and delicate taste that the "Real" versions try to imitate.
I'm not sure of the details, but it apparently started a good time ago, when someone wanted to market a Seasoning substitute for the masses. Fermenting takes time and effort, and he wanted to produce a cheap substitute. But of course naming it "Sugar Solution" would not have helped promote it as a Seasoning substitute. So he consulted lawyers, and eventually everyone including the courts agreed that real things don't have qualifier. And so today, when people here buy anything with the prefix "Real," it's implicit that they're buying a substitute.
Ah... a bit more coffee.
Unfortunately the house I spent the night in doesn't have a functioning kitchen so it will need to come from a bottle.
It's store bought... cold... but still nice.
Let's look at the ingredients.
Yes. Coffee. Just coffee.
Nothing else. No matter how cold and store bought, it's r.... oops, no.
Coffee.
Hm. So where was I. Oh yes, "Real."
So... culturally I guess I'm predisposed to consider anything called "Real" fake. Real things don't need qualifiers. When's the last time you heard your mother call herself a "Real Woman?" Or your sister? Or aunt?
Men... Hmmm..... I guess in English people do sometimes refer to someone saying "He's a Real Man." But when they do I believe they mean that person has an abundance of certain masculine attributes that the speaker admires. But the base premise is that the person is male to start with. The "Real" in this case just emphasizes how very male he is. Have you ever heard a man say "I'm a Real Man?"
But... now I'm starting to ramble again. Like always when I start to write aimlessly. I just hope this isn't too boring.
What I wanted to say is... what is our need? What do we want from transition? What do we need to be? Normal women? Or Real Women?
If the latter, then great. It's a perfectly legitimate category. A group known and acknowledged to be different from both normal men and women. That has its very own unique community and unwritten rules of conduct—just like the normal girl and boy groups do. An ever expanding social club where one can happily spend the rest of one's life immersed in the company of like-minded Real Women. Ever discussing issues unique to themselves. Just like normal men and women do.
But if the first... then it's not about changing society, or civil rights, or normalization or visibility or self-acceptance.
Unlike the Real Women group, the normal girl group is and will always be invitation only. And the criteria are unwritten. But clear.
They all just might be summarized as follows. "Belong."
And some tenets Very Much valued by Real Women—such as "Visibility"—Very Much conflict with this.
So... where does this lead?
The thoughts in my head have not taken final form. But I've almost no coffee left... and while what I've written is unfinished I need to start work now...
Maybe someone can continue from here. Either tear the whole thing apart, or finish it for me...♡
karen_A:
--- Quote from: zirconia on July 04, 2020, 03:40:54 AM ---"Passing", "not passing", "self-acceptance..."
Nothing new. A familiar subject that just about everyone active there seems to have lovingly contributed to.
--- End quote ---
Looking at old post here, most but not everyone.
Transitioning tends make one insecure and self conscious, at least for a while. Some get past that and some not.
--- Quote ---Comradeship is nice. I also love my friends. But the condition I've been diagnosed with isn't something I want to spend much of my life on.
--- End quote ---
But it will be with you always... that is why one sees even people like Elizabeth (Lisa) on T fora... Over the years on-line I have run into a who transitioned in the 70's, which tells me it does tend stay a factor to some degree no matter how one lives one's life.
--- Quote --- In fact it's something I'd prefer to spend very little of my life on. Isn't that why I need treatment? Why I finally ended up asking for help? The pain was ever present. I want it to end. I want transition to be short. As short as possible. I want to leave it behind.
--- End quote ---
I think most of us feel that way starting out.
--- Quote ---And... I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. But... somehow the never-ending chorus of commiseration I see wherever trans* crowds gather would almost seem to perpetuate it. Celebrate it.
--- End quote ---
That is the only stuff that we are just about guaranteed to have in common... other that that we are as diverse in interests and attitudes as the general population. For example, looking over the old posts here, I'm am not sure I feel comfortable with the preponderance of what i see as very conservative political views here.
--- Quote ---In a way "the community" seems akin to an athletic team, whose members all cheer for each other while forever warming up for the games. Readying for life. But no-one starts playing.
--- End quote ---
Most people do progress, but eventually get as far as they can (that place that is different for each person for a myriad reasons)... But once post-op over time they they end to post less or just not in the type of topics you talk about...
But wherever they wind up in the long run it just becomes their day to day life.
But remember in most fora the teh majority of posts will be from people early in (or pre) transition.
I was once on mailing list that was part-op only and had over 100 members... Not a lot of the stuff you talk about in your post there! It eventually self destructed over lifestyle issues unfortunately.
--- Quote ---Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe everyone is concentrating on the game, and only comes to report when something wonderfully special happens.
--- End quote ---
Day to day life for most people tends to be pretty boring to other people! ;)
--- Quote ---Passing. Buying clothes. Discrimination. Makeup. What underwear is best. How do you close your bra... ugh. Passing. Passing. Non-passing.
--- End quote ---
While it happens (and I do talk about passing) how many long term post-ops do you see posting about that stuff? Not many.
--- Quote ---Acceptance. Civil rights. Transgender rights.
--- End quote ---
Important while transitioning for survival and employment, and long term for those that don't pass well, as well as those who do pass well and it's matter of principle fighting for what is right. And of course fear an insecurity figure unto it as well.
--- Quote --- Terminology! Political correctness!
--- End quote ---
IMO based in insecurity
--- Quote ---Male fail....
--- End quote ---
A state during transition, that can result in some amusing situations! But that passes.
--- Quote ---Self-acceptance is more important than passing.
--- End quote ---
I think they go hand in hand. Both are needed and are interrelated IMO.
Humans are social animals so having others see and treat you as what you feel about yourself helps reinforce your own identity... the opposite will tend to make self acceptance harder.
--- Quote ---And so today, when people here buy anything with the prefix "Real," it's implicit that they're buying a substitute.
--- End quote ---
I get the point, however unless one is totally stealth (and many can not get there for various reasons) from the first day they transition, having MTF's seen as disordered males does have a significant negative effects on one's life. So what are are those who can not be stealth supposed to do?
That said i know one can't forcefully change people's attitudes... and I don't know if there ever will be a time that people who "know" truly see us as woman despite "knowing" - determining not in my lifetime...
But anti-discrimination laws over time do have a positive effect, even if they don't stamp out discrimination.
I'm not and never will be a trans crusader, and I don't like how high a profile TSism has in the media ... it certainly makes things difficult for what I want...
But what is the alternative?
-Karen
zirconia:
Hi, Karen
It's lovely to get calm feedback. I guess what was in the back of my mind when writing the above was the way this whole type of discussion is banned just about everywhere. As the recent lovely comments from a moderator someone else so nicely demonstrate...
--- Quote from: karen_A on July 04, 2020, 10:36:44 AM ---Transitioning tends make one insecure and self conscious, at least for a while. Some get past that and some not.
--- End quote ---
I concur. Maybe I should have described the discussion in question in more detail... because it always was that particular content that really made me nervous and afraid. To summarize it and most of the conversations that are more than cursory, they go like this:
-"Can I pass?"
"A few can, most can't."
"If you do, great, but don't worry. You're still a Real Woman!"
"The beauty standards of the world are cisnormative!"
"It's Society that needs to change, and for that to happen we should just be visible..."
Now... for me that always gave birth to absolute terror. Put bluntly, the message ever since I started searching was twofold. First, only those who transition as children can disappear. Second, since I hadn't, for me to even try was an act of treason against the group to which I was by default assigned. Forever.
LOL.
--- Quote from: karen_A on July 04, 2020, 10:36:44 AM ---But it will be with you always... that is why one sees even people like Elizabeth (Lisa) on T fora... Over the years on-line I have run into a who transitioned in the 70's, which tells me it does tend stay a factor to some degree no matter how one lives one's life.
--- End quote ---
Again, there is more than one kind of forgetting. I was surprised to realize the ultimate volume of memories I'd repressed. Not only the obvious extremely traumatic one that I felt sealed my fate... but out of that despair also some that would have helped keep the hope alive.
And then there is the kind I described earlier. A healed hurt that it takes effort to remember. Yes, my past injuries sometimes remind me of themselves. But not daily. If I look up what the new treatment methods are it is not out of pain, but out of curiosity.
When you indicate most of us want transition to be short and something we leave behind when starting out, do you mean we change our minds as things progress? Because it seems like many if not most people on the boards do seem to consider transition as a journey of discovery, valuable in itself. And describe it as such to people who haven't even started.
What I wanted—needed—it to be was a stepping over a doorsill. Even knowing it can't be completely instantaneous. I resisted the need for ages out of fear of the endless sojourn promised by the general narrative... and the promise of in any case never reaching what I truly needed.
With a "But the alternative is just as good" tagged on as consolation or reassurance.
--- Quote from: karen_A on July 04, 2020, 10:36:44 AM ---That is the only stuff that we are just about guaranteed to have in common... other that that we are as diverse in interests and attitudes as the general population. For example, looking over the old posts here, I'm am not sure I feel comfortable with the preponderance of what i see as very conservative political views here.
--- End quote ---
Commiseration as a common factor does not seem to me very constructive. It would imply permanence of suffering. Both I and others have used amputees as allegory in the past. While their limbs won't grow back, the amputees I know have just wished to learn to walk normally and not make an issue of their handicap. To them it was not a source of pride. Nor was it an "identity." Just something that happened and had to be dealt with, hopefully well enough to enable them to live completely normal lives.
So let me take this further once again. Someone amputated at the hip can hardly expect to be able to walk in a completely normal fashion without a limp. A good robotic assistance device (FFS) might help... but I've never heard an amputee claim that retaining a limp is a Good Thing for the amputee community as a whole.
Every single one I've known has just wanted to regain as much normalcy as possible. Not "normalize" his condition. Not even when just starting rehabilitation.
--- Quote from: karen_A on July 04, 2020, 10:36:44 AM --- Most people do progress, but eventually get as far as they can (that place that is different for each person for a myriad reasons)... But once post-op over time they they end to post less or just not in the type of topics you talk about...
But wherever they wind up in the long run it just becomes their day to day life.
But remember in most fora the teh majority of posts will be from people early in (or pre) transition.
I was once on mailing list that was part-op only and had over 100 members... Not a lot of the stuff you talk about in your post there! It eventually self destructed over lifestyle issues unfortunately.
Day to day life for most people tends to be pretty boring to other people! ;)
--- End quote ---
Yes. I do understand that many of those posting on the boards are fairly new.
But... and I feel this to be a big factor... their message and feelings seem pretty much identical to those of the professional activists.
So anyone just looking for a way out—a door to normalcy—is instead met with dogma and indoctrination. And censure of any other opinions.
Again, I found this terrifying.
"Is this my destination if I try to escape this pain?"
And... all of this is lauded as wonderful. Progressive. The Right Thing. Normalization over normalcy. While those wishing to be no different than their own sisters are denounced as "cisnormative."
--- Quote from: karen_A on July 04, 2020, 10:36:44 AM ---While it happens (and I do talk about passing) how many long term post-ops do you see posting about that stuff? Not many.
Important while transitioning for survival and employment, and long term for those that don't pass well, as well as those who do pass well and it's matter of principle fighting for what is right. And of course fear an insecurity figure unto it as well.
IMO based in insecurity
A state during transition, that can result in some amusing situations! But that passes.
I think they go hand in hand. Both are needed and are interrelated IMO.
Humans are social animals so having others see and treat you as what you feel about yourself helps reinforce your own identity... the opposite will tend to make self acceptance harder.
--- End quote ---
Yes... all of this is understandable. Once again, the point is that the conversations seem to gravitate to the pattern I described at the beginning of this post. Which felt like torture. Because my primary need always was to be just like my sisters. LOL.
And... note the word "identity." Again, I may be the odd one, but my identity always was "me." Since my body made me male, I was a boy, a youth and a man. But I did not like it. At all. It was just a vile and horrifying fact.
But I did not "identify" as a man or a woman. Let alone transwoman. To survive the pain I did increasingly and consciously ignore the mores and norms expected of men while adamantly hanging on to the male title. I was me. Unfortunately doomed to be a man by my body. But I did not have to conform.
Ultimately this pain control failed. I acquiesced to my family's advice and cajoling and went to see the doctors. And found there was a way out.
And from the kind words of someone who had walked the path that it was much simpler than I had thought.
But... I still remain the same. Just me.
--- Quote from: karen_A on July 04, 2020, 10:36:44 AM ---I get the point, however unless one is totally stealth (and many can not get there for various reasons) from the first day they transition, having MTF's seen as disordered males does have a significant negative effects on one's life. So what are are those who can not be stealth supposed to do?
That said i know one can't forcefully change people's attitudes... and I don't know if there ever will be a time that people who "know" truly see us as woman despite "knowing" - determining not in my lifetime...
But anti-discrimination laws over time do have a positive effect, even if they don't stamp out discrimination.
I'm not and never will be a trans crusader, and I don't like how high a profile TSism has in the media ... it certainly makes things difficult for what I want...
But what is the alternative?
--- End quote ---
Thank you for understanding. As you mentioned earlier, biology is a factor that cannot be erased. While it's been discussed before, the boards usually censor such conversations. The concept of reproductive instinct affecting people's reactions and attitudes just cannot be allowed to exist.
There are people where I grew up who absolutely can't pass. They have a specific name. And while activists are now trying hard to make it so, that name has not to date been seen as derogatory. And while people do see them as "other" they are an accepted part of society—generally gravitating toward entertainment and bar businesses. They often work two jobs. One "normal" during the day, and one where they dress as they wish during the evening. Many love men. Some love women. Yes—it is the kind of double life that I myself don't understand... but until now they have not claimed to be identical to normal women.
In their evening job the way they are and feel is a tremendous asset. Sometimes they get more pay in the evenings than during the day jobs. And sometimes quit the daytime jobs when they realize that. One acquaintance used to take a taxi nightly from the workplace back home—a distance of about 40 miles. He could easily afford it.
There are cultural differences. Perhaps where you live work like that is seen as immoral or looked down on. In a way our world, while ostensibly much more conservative, is extremely accommodating of differences. Choosing work is making a life. Perhaps that makes accepting the fact one is different easier.
Those who pass generally disappear from the world of entertainment when they marry, or find a permanent lover. Some become celebrities... as they may also do there. But again, they are seen as different and interesting. Not looked down on. And not made a big deal of.
However... activists here are also trying to change that. With the result that e.g. the common courtesy based abstinence of those who don't pass from using women's facilities has been eroded—resulting in the first ordinance in the history of the country banning such use. It's as if they were trying to intentionally sow discord.
As for anti-discrimination laws over time having a positive effect... I don't know your history well enough to comment.
All I can say is that in my case the diligent efforts of American teachers to stamp out non-existent discrimination had a rather different effect.
I don't know all the answers. Or even some. But...
I believe it's not wrong to wish for normalcy.
And that trying to convince people it's unattainable is detrimental.
And that spurning it as "damaging to the community" is inexcusable.
Normalcy is all I myself ever needed.
zirconia:
P.S.
Here's a fresh typical example of what perplexed me:
Some people feel the need to have FFS, some don't.
Some people need to do SRS, and some are happy with their bodies as they are. Or maybe they'd like to change, but the cost and/or risks are more than they want to bear (or maybe can bear.)
Etc.
Even "transition" means different things to different people. Some people go the whole route of a name change and birth certificate change. But I know people who've been living as another gender but haven't bothered with either. And for some people, simply knowing who they are is enough, they don't feel the need to go any further.
Note how transition itself is defined. Entirely social. Even "the whole route" is merely juridical.
And how all physical treatment is described as completely optional.
For someone whose entire discomfort hinged on the very specific physical discrepancy that he'd since when he was tiny felt absolutely doomed him to being male, this felt extremely disorienting. Claiming just social status as female would have meant lying. And clothes had no effect on what was wrong.
What devastated me was physical reality...
PPS.
I'd also like to be clear... the path that has finally given me hope is not the right one for everyone. Just like the one I thought for so long to be the only option exacerbated my hopelessness. The fact that what was on offer brought me despair does not make it wrong in and of itself—just wrong for me because I needed something different.
Even so... the erasure and banning of what I needed does very much upset me. I hope from my heart that no-one else needs to go through as much as I did to finally realize that what she needs does exist. And is attainable.
Dena:
--- Quote from: karen_A on July 04, 2020, 10:36:44 AM ---That is the only stuff that we are just about guaranteed to have in common... other that that we are as diverse in interests and attitudes as the general population. For example, looking over the old posts here, I'm am not sure I feel comfortable with the preponderance of what i see as very conservative political views here.
--- End quote ---
Years ago I was at a gun range with some friends. Normally between rounds, there are several hours of idle time so we engage in many interesting and not so interesting discussions. One day Peter made the statement that you should pick the most important issue and vote for the person who supports that view. That didn't feel right to me but at the time I couldn't offer a better idea.
I thought for a long time about that and came up with what I think is a better idea. You should vote for the person who will best supports the constitution and the rule of law. You may think my views are conservative however in the last election it was difficult to decide who to vote for as I felt neither person was close to meeting this standard. I selected the one who I thought might come closer and voted for that person. Am I proud of my selection? No. I would have like to have voted for somebody better but that was all that was offered.
The constitution has kept us free and safe from a dictator for about 235 years and somebody will have to prove that they clearly have a better solution before I will part with my belief in it. Remember that it is a document that the people assign powers to the government. If the power isn't assigned to the government, it remains with the people unless they should assign the power to the local government. You have a good deal more freedom that you think and freedoms you may think you don't have are because the government took a power from you that was not assigned to them.
As for this web site and politics, I was moderating on a site were conservative viewpoints weren't allowed. If I wanted to make a post supporting a conservative view point, it wasn't possible. I will not moderate political viewpoints that I am opposed to as long as they are polite and rationally expressed. I will moderate viewpoints I agree with if they fail to follow these rules. I welcome ideas that are different from mine because they validate or expose the weakness in my viewpoints. Opposing idea are also interesting to explore and think about because they may contain a truth I hadn't thought of.
As I said, I support the constitution and not permitting free speech even when I disagree with the idea would be hypocritical of me. Conservative ideas and the constitution tend to parallel each other however just because you say you're conservative, doesn't mean you follow the idea of the constitution. This is why I consider myself neither a Republican or Democrat and instead consider myself a constitutionalist. It might be difficult to understand but there are options other than Republican or Democrat.
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