Community Conversations > General Topics

Unfinished early morning ramblings... or, What is the meaning of "real?"

<< < (3/9) > >>

Complete:

Quote from: karen_A on Today at 01:02:53 PM

--- Quote ---So what is some one who IS TS and has tried all the could and and asked all by transitioning, but can't pass all the time think of themselves? As a fake?... That is the message most of the  non-T's (and a few TSes who do pass) give to them... That can do a number on them on the long run.
--- End quote ---
If you blame someone else for your problems then it is easy to avoid looking at what could very be the true source of that problem. I think there is an intentional mis-interpretation of the message being delivered. It's like Zirconia said. How can someone, anyone, insist on how they are perceived by others. We only have control over our own feelings and actions....NOT those of others.
Yet this seems to be what the Left and the "trans-community" demands. Some might call that mind control.
Since I don't yet possess that particular super-power l can't help you how you must/might/should think of yourself. Obviously, that is up to you.

karen_A:

--- Quote from: zirconia on July 05, 2020, 04:27:41 PM ---I agree.

I agree. What I don't understand is the dissuasion from trying I've seen.

--- End quote ---

I have seen people say it's not necessary, or were militantly against it because of philosophical/ political considerations but I never felt they were teh majority..


--- Quote ---Mostly by people who seem to feel it is ultimately detrimental.

--- End quote ---

If you are talking about stealth, depending on teh degree it is taken to,  and the individual's  situation/emotional makeup it can be...

Consider this. On another forum I have been on there was a very bright, very charismatic long term post-op who had quite a following.. What she advocated was not "telling" even someone you might marry. I know of several situations it coming out unexpectedly distorted marriages, and that really messed up both lives...

I was the only on for awhile who had an issue with her position and and argued with her about it... which made me a target for some of her acolytes.

My argument was we have no need to disclose to anybody unless and until people start making lifetime commitments like marriage ... then because of the possible consequences of it coming out unexpectedly, as well as the the potential corrosive effect of keeping that secret for decades from a life partner, to be fair to the partner, one should disclose then.

Well I was accused of saying that was telling the person you are not a woman, and that teh partner really did not want to know etc etc...

We should not HAVE deal with that, and the possible rejection of telling... It is very unfair... But it is what it is. This condition does not make life easy and means we have to deal with difficult things others do not.


--- Quote ---True. And I guess it feels good to be lauded as beautiful even if one does not pass. However, the general trend seems to be to laud everyone with comments such as "I see nothing but a beautiful woman" when asked for feedback on passing.

--- End quote ---

Never trust want another TS says about your possibility... Often he response is related to about their own passability , or (if one does not pass well) they don't want to hurt your feelings... Only rely on the reactions of those that don't "know".


--- Quote ---I remember one member at Susan's who actually did try to give fair, kind and truthful feedback on a thread called "Do I pass" or something like that. Dena might know the details, but it seemed to me she deleted her account due to the responses she got.

--- End quote ---

I did not believe the feedback I see on that thread... but remember for many that is an emotional minefield and it's best just to say what I said above.


--- Quote ---Humans are animals... and I completely agree with what you earlier mentioned about our biological programming. Do you believe it is possible to override it?

--- End quote ---

To some degree... social norms do that in terms of with whom and at what age people can have  sex... but not completely.



--- Quote ---I agree. Yet the voices that dissuade people from trying, and instead aim for self-acceptance seem the most lauded. Why is this?

--- End quote ---

That has not been most of my on-line experience... Most of my time on-line have been in primarily TS forums. Susan's is an aberration in that , which I looked into because my "home" forum for the last 20 years has been withering away for a number of years and is just about effectively dead.


--- Quote ---But other than that, doesn't learning follow any move, whether it be to a new country or even city?

--- End quote ---

It is essential learning to be part of different culture with different rules and expectations...


--- Quote --- At least I would consider transition to be the move itself. Isn't learning what we need on arrival just a normal part of life?

--- End quote ---

In principle but IMO not in degree.


--- Quote ---As for changes to one's life—which ones do you refer to?

--- End quote ---
The societal expectations.


--- Quote ---It must have been absolutely horrible...

--- End quote ---

I also grew up in horrible situation I would not wish on my worst enemy that had nothing to do with being TS... I learned to how survive, cope and go on despite everything... but the coping mechanism was not very healthy... I don't feel comfortable going into all of it here.

-Karen

karen_A:

--- Quote from: Complete on July 05, 2020, 07:58:45 PM ---If you blame someone else for your problems then it is easy to avoid looking at what could very be the true source of that problem.

--- End quote ---

First i was speaking in general based on people I have met and known well.

Secondly you don't know me, or the fact that growing up I could only rely on myself...Combine that with teh fact that apparently can not be objective about people who don't hold your political views, again makes me think it best not to engage you in this thread.

There is no point and I got past the need to respond and argue in situations like this at least a decade ago.

-karen

zirconia:

--- Quote from: karen_A on July 05, 2020, 08:35:35 PM ---I have seen people say it's not necessary, or were militantly against it because of philosophical/ political considerations but I never felt they were teh majority.
--- End quote ---

You're obviously much more familiar with the transosphere than I am. I myself have been only on a very few forums and Reddit—and I guess they must have been a bit anomalous. On most it felt like I was the only one who spoke for passing and stealth. But then again, it may also be that the majority agreed with me and was just afraid to speak out.


--- Quote from: karen_A on July 05, 2020, 08:35:35 PM ---If you are talking about stealth, depending on teh degree it is taken to,  and the individual's  situation/emotional makeup it can be...

Consider this. On another forum I have been on there was a very bright, very charismatic long term post-op who had quite a following.. What she advocated was not "telling" even someone you might marry. I know of several situations it coming out unexpectedly distorted marriages, and that really messed up both lives...

I was the only on for awhile who had an issue with her position and and argued with her about it... which made me a target for some of her acolytes.

My argument was we have no need to disclose to anybody unless and until people start making lifetime commitments like marriage ... then because of the possible consequences of it coming out unexpectedly, as well as the the potential corrosive effect of keeping that secret for decades from a life partner, to be fair to the partner, one should disclose then.

Well I was accused of saying that was telling the person you are not a woman, and that teh partner really did not want to know etc etc...

We should not HAVE deal with that, and the possible rejection of telling... It is very unfair... But it is what it is. This condition does not make life easy and means we have to deal with difficult things others do not.
--- End quote ---

At that point we were actually discussing passing. As for stealth... I guess I do understand how you feel.

And I really feel it should be up to each individual. Because it's that individual who lives with the results, regardless of choice.

A very wise woman I know once said "There are things in everyone's life they don't ever talk about. What he can never know will not hurt him." And that "can never" makes partial/mostly stealth an oxymoron. It's either or. And that is why I believe one should never try to coerce anyone to be out.

I view stealth like virginity. Once lost it cannot be recovered.

One question, though... I seem to recall you stayed married—right? Was the charismatic post-op also married? If so was her spouse a man or a woman? How about her followers? I'm curious, because I do believe our situations affect our feelings. Or do you see yours as having no bearing on your own thoughts?

I bring this up because when I first asked about sex with men, the most detailed advice offered came from pre-ops who were never planning to be with anyone other than their current female spouses. And the situations provided were hypothetical. LOL. And thus not based on experience.

That does not necessarily make what they said wrong... but given the words of those who have actually gone through and experienced what I have and will vs. those who haven't, it seems sort of natural to feel bias toward the ones with whom one has more in common.


--- Quote from: karen_A on July 05, 2020, 08:35:35 PM ---Never trust want another TS says about your possibility... Often he response is related to about their own passability , or (if one does not pass well) they don't want to hurt your feelings... Only rely on the reactions of those that don't "know".

I did not believe the feedback I see on that thread... but remember for many that is an emotional minefield and it's best just to say what I said above.
--- End quote ---

LOL. Yes. Obvio. Your comment sounds very wise. Not that I'd want to offer any opinion in any case. Again, the only objective evaluator was probably driven off the site. And, since the subject came up, as an aside I simply can't understand why people post recognizable pictures online. Ever. Let alone in a thread with that name on a transgender site. I guess it just proves that to many stealth is not in the least important.


--- Quote from: karen_A on July 05, 2020, 08:35:35 PM ---To some degree... social norms do that in terms of with whom and at what age people can have  sex... but not completely.
--- End quote ---

Can have sex? No way. Thirteen year olds at least here have it. All the time.

Should have sex... well, maybe. But who gets punished if they do? And for what? Hmmm...?



Laws are interesting. They can be used in many ways. But I'm leery whether they can nullify what nature has programmed into us.


--- Quote from: karen_A on July 05, 2020, 08:35:35 PM ---That has not been most of my on-line experience... Most of my time on-line have been in primarily TS forums. Susan's is an aberration in that , which I looked into because my "home" forum for the last 20 years has been withering away for a number of years and is just about effectively dead.
--- End quote ---

My impressions are obviously based on just my own observations. Seeing that you have more experience I'm glad to hear you feel things aren't as bad as I've thought.


--- Quote from: karen_A on July 05, 2020, 08:35:35 PM ---It is essential learning to be part of different culture with different rules and expectations...
--- End quote ---

Yes. Having grown up within several, often overlapping, it's an obvious, simple fact of life.


--- Quote from: karen_A on July 05, 2020, 08:35:35 PM ---In principle but IMO not in degree.
--- End quote ---

This I'm afraid i don't understand


--- Quote from: karen_A on July 05, 2020, 08:35:35 PM ---The societal expectations.
--- End quote ---

This I do. Yes. Again without question a simple fact of life.


--- Quote from: karen_A on July 05, 2020, 08:35:35 PM ---I also grew up in horrible situation I would not wish on my worst enemy that had nothing to do with being TS... I learned to how survive, cope and go on despite everything... but the coping mechanism was not very healthy... I don't feel comfortable going into all of it here.
--- End quote ---

From your description of where and how you grew up I can perhaps conjecture a tiny bit. Most likely just a minuscule fraction... but it's enough. I'm glad you survived, and once again hope that you're now happy and at peace.  ٩(๑❛ᴗ❛๑)۶

---

P.S.
I just reread what I wrote... from the original post up to here. And since no-one's replied to this latest post as of yet, or broached the subject spontaneously, I guess this is a good place to also pose three questions that I now realize obviously must have been in my subconscious when I wrote the title.

Ignoring documentation—because that is mere paper—and keeping in mind our biological programming, what are the minimum criteria by which society may judge us to be normal women? Without qualifications.

What are the criteria based on which the community judges us to be Real Women?

And how do they compare?

Edit: Clarity, added questions

karen_A:

--- Quote from: zirconia on July 06, 2020, 02:46:16 AM ---You're obviously much more familiar with the transosphere than I am.

--- End quote ---

Well teh online community of 15 to 20+ years ago. As I said in the last 20 years I was really only on one forum, and I have not been any part of 3D community  for about 19ish years... So much of my perspective is likely not current.


--- Quote --- On most it felt like I was the only one who spoke for passing and stealth.

--- End quote ---
There have been pitched battles with armies on both sides over that.. with neither side being shy about their opinions to say the least!


--- Quote ---At that point we were actually discussing passing. As for stealth... I guess I do understand how you feel.

--- End quote ---
To me they go hard in hand ... You can't have stealth without passing, and if you care about passing you tend to practice some degree of stealth, at least in some social circles.


--- Quote ---A very wise woman I know once said "There are things in everyone's life they don't ever talk about. What he can never know will not hurt him."

--- End quote ---

The thing is for TSes one can never be sure "he" will not find out in this modern connected world.


--- Quote ---And that is why I believe one should never try to coerce anyone to be out.

--- End quote ---
Again my belief is there is only one situation where I think there is moral obligation to be out... entering a commitment like marriage with someone else.  Outside of that, one's past is no one else's business be they friends or lovers.


--- Quote ---I view stealth like virginity. Once lost it cannot be recovered.

--- End quote ---
Considering one has to transition to be stealth, logically that is not necessarily true if one can pass well.


--- Quote ---One question, though... I seem to recall you stayed married—right? Was the charismatic post-op also married?

--- End quote ---
Before transition she was married to a woman (something she did not make well known). Afterwards she lived with a guy who did not know for several years until they broke up.


--- Quote ---How about her followers? I'm curious, because I do believe our situations affect our feelings. Or do you see yours as having no bearing on your own thoughts?

--- End quote ---

My situation (spouse and how much I cared about her and she me, my passibility, and age) had a strong affect on my actions... but not my feeling and what i wanted. But I am a survivor, and i survive by doing doing what I think is best for a situation rather than what I want , as well as what I think is right and honoring teh responsibilities I took on....

Sometimes that is very hard, but difficult situations seem to have been my lot in life... But I do survive.


--- Quote ---I bring this up because when I first asked about sex with men, the most detailed advice offered came from pre-ops who were never planning to be with anyone other than their current female spouses.

--- End quote ---





--- Quote ---Should have sex... well, maybe. But who gets punished if they do? And for what? Hmmm...?

--- End quote ---

Think incest.





--- Quote ---This I'm afraid i don't understand

--- End quote ---

In principle it is a change and change in life often means growth/learning... but changing sex in society is much bigger change socially in how people relate to you and how you are expected to relate to others, than most things in life... that is what I meant by degree.



--- Quote ---Ignoring documentation—because that is mere paper—and keeping in mind our biological programming, what are the minimum criteria by which society may judge us to be normal women? Without qualifications.

--- End quote ---

I think you have to speak at teh individual level... and I think for many, if they know and can process teh fact that some CAN change sex (big if), it will be what they see and experience... passibility combined with vibe.. If they can  NOT see or experience a trace of male they can sort of forget after while because most people live and react to what they experience in the moment.
 

--- Quote ---What are the criteria based on which the community judges us to be Real Women?

--- End quote ---

IMO there is a difference what they say and what they feel..in reality IMO it's the same as the rest of society. What they say can depend on their own situation and needs, as well as their trans politics.

-Karen

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page

Go to full version