Community Conversations > General Topics
Unfinished early morning ramblings... or, What is the meaning of "real?"
Complete:
Quote from Zirconia:
--- Quote ---Comradeship is nice. I also love my friends. But the condition I've been diagnosed with isn't something I want to spend much of my life on.
--- End quote ---
Who would? It's hell on earth. The simple truth is one need only take those extremely difficult and costly steps to correct the problem in a timely and expeditious manner. Obviously, not the easiest thing to do but....consider the alternative.
Quote from Karen:
--- Quote ---But it will be with you always
--- End quote ---
Speaking for myself, since that is the extent of what l know for sure, l have to strongly disagree with what l see as an over-generalization of your own experience.
--- Quote ---....that is why one sees even people like Elizabeth (Lisa) on T fora...
--- End quote ---
Maybe yes. Perhaps Lisa does suffer from some discomfort or insecurity. And then again...Maybe NOT. Perhaps she has other reasons for contributing her knowledge and experience.
--- Quote ---Over the years on-line I have run into a who transitioned in the 70's, which tells me it does tend stay a factor to some degree no matter how one lives one's life.
--- End quote ---
Clearly that is your personal inference, based on your own experiences and biases and could very well be a valid one.
However, since you couch your assertion with the HUGE caveate that "this tends[/i] to stay a factor to some degree....l am sure you recognize that your assertion is not well supported beyond your own feelings.
In addition, l think how you live your life...is very important.
I think living what 95% of the human population would consider a "normal lifestyle" has a great deal to do with how one sees oneself or feels about themselves.
karen_A:
--- Quote from: Complete on July 05, 2020, 11:26:39 AM ---Speaking for myself, since that is the extent of what l know for sure, l have to strongly disagree with what l see as an over-generalization of your own experience.
--- End quote ---
And there you are wrong... I may not have transitioned (1997) as long ago as you, but between between those I have known in person and the many long term post-ops I have corresponded with on line. At least two were Harry Benjamin patients as a number had SRS with Biber or Granato In NYC as Well as other surgeons who are no longer active. I found the on-line community in the late 80s and there were a lot of old timer around on-line - more than one sees today. As i mentioned I was also on a post-op only mailing list with over 100 a number dated back to the 70's and 80s fro their transitions... So I speak from everything I have learned in the last 30+ years, not just my experience.
Of course there are exceptions to everything who it copes to people... but trends do exist.
--- Quote ---Perhaps Lisa does suffer from some discomfort or insecurity.
--- End quote ---
I would say any long therm post op posts in forums because they either see a need or have a need (and it does no need to be discomfort or insecurity) but either way it is because of something they don't share with other women... and it matters to them.
--- Quote ---Clearly that is your personal inference, based on your own experiences and biases and could very well be a valid one.
--- End quote ---
To a degree so is everyone's... but as I explained I am talking about a much wider sample of experience than my own.
--- Quote ---However, since you couch your assertion with the HUGE caveate that "this tends to stay a factor to some degree....l am sure you recognize that your assertion is not well supported beyond your own feelings.
--- End quote ---
On that we will have to agree to disagree.
-karen
karen_A:
--- Quote from: Dena on July 04, 2020, 11:35:02 PM ---I thought for a long time about that and came up with what I think is a better idea. You should vote for the person who will best supports the constitution and the rule of law.
--- End quote ---
Interpreting the constitution and figuring how it should apply to a world vastly different from the ones the framer's experienced is no simple task.
--- Quote --- You may think my views are conservative
--- End quote ---
I knew that from the other board, but that is OK.
--- Quote --- Am I proud of my selection? No. I would have like to have voted for somebody better but that was all that was offered.
--- End quote ---
Well one option was not quite as portrayed by teh opposition... and the other one was worst. One was at least competent and the other not ... IMO of course.
--- Quote ---Remember that it is a document that the people assign powers to the government. If the power isn't assigned to the government, it remains with the people unless they should assign the power to the local government.
--- End quote ---
Do you have a problem with the government mandating mask wearing during a pandemic for teh public good? This gets back to the question where does one person's right end and another's begins and who has the right to determine that for society.
--- Quote ---I will not moderate political viewpoints that I am opposed to as long as they are polite and rationally expressed.
--- End quote ---
I hope you did not take what I posted personally. I saw your temperament on teh other forum and have no issue with it. I was speaking if what I though were more extreme views/expressions than any of yours!
--- Quote ---It might be difficult to understand but there are options other than Republican or Democrat.
--- End quote ---
With the number registered as indpendants no so hard!
-Karen
karen_A:
--- Quote from: zirconia on July 04, 2020, 09:08:26 PM ----"Can I pass?"
"A few can, most can't."
--- End quote ---
I don't know what the percentages are but I would say a significant number can pass, and a significant number can't ALL the time... but both groups deserve to live their lives in dignity and be respected.
--- Quote ---"If you do, great, but don't worry. You're still a Real Woman!"
--- End quote ---
So what is some one who IS TS and has tried all the could and and asked all by transitioning, but can't pass all the time think of themselves? As a fake?... That is the message most of the non-T's (and a few TSes who do pass) give to them... That can do a number on them on the long run.
--- Quote ---"The beauty standards of the world are cisnormative!"
--- End quote ---
One think to remember is that passing is not synonymous with beauty.
--- Quote ---"It's Society that needs to change, and for that to happen we should just be visible..."
--- End quote ---
Society does need to change in two it treats people who are seen as different be it for race or changing sex... They are right in that being invisible does not promote change... and some who pass very well do chose to be out, but all those who pass are under no obligation to be out... Those who say all need to be out or all need to be stealth are extremist out of touch with reality and don't really care about individual's lives and needs.
--- Quote ---First, only those who transition as children can disappear.
--- End quote ---
Not only but the later one does, on average (there are always exceptions) the harder it gets.
--- Quote --- Second, since I hadn't, for me to even try was an act of treason against the group to which I was by default assigned. Forever.
--- End quote ---
That is ridiculous... Of course when I transitioned, those I knew going through it then, everyone's goal was to pass well... Not everyone made it there however.
--- Quote ---When you indicate most of us want transition to be short and something we leave behind when starting out, do you mean we change our minds as things progress?
--- End quote ---
I depends on how things go... If they are not working out one has to find a way to make peace with where they can get to (or find a way to cope it with - and some coping methods are not very healthy)
--- Quote --- Because it seems like many if not most people on the boards do seem to consider transition as a journey of discovery, valuable in itself. And describe it as such to people who haven't even started.
--- End quote ---
But that is what it is. When you change how you live your life to such a great extent you experience many different things that can cause you to grow and change... think of it as an adolescent discovering who they are , often trying many different things to figure who exactly they are and how they fit into the world... But adolescence is not (or should not) be forever...
--- Quote --- I resisted the need for ages out of fear of the endless sojourn promised by the general narrative... and the promise of in any case never reaching what I truly needed.
--- End quote ---
I grew up at time when one really needed to be able to pass well to even be treated, and treatment of children was not even thought about... And by the 8th grade I was bigger then most men... There is a reason why even though I was sneaking out of house dressed in my mothers clothes in the 6-7th grade at night, I never thought doing anything about it was possible for me... and when I started therapy with a gender therapist at 39 it was hard to even tell her why i was there...I was so afraid of dealing with this, that I would wind up alone and on the streets...
It took awhile but it got to the point that not at least trying despite the odds was unbearable... and I can assure you I wanted (still do really) to be seen as normal woman.
--- Quote ---So let me take this further once again. Someone amputated at the hip can hardly expect to be able to walk in a completely normal fashion without a limp. A good robotic assistance device (FFS) might help... but I've never heard an amputee claim that retaining a limp is a Good Thing for the amputee community as a whole.
--- End quote ---
I have never hard anyone say that with respect to FFS..
But FFS is VERY expensive and can be VERY painful (as I can attest , the first 3 days after were the most miserable of my life!) so for either reason some may say such things.
--- Quote ---Yes. I do understand that many of those posting on the boards are fairly new.
But... and I feel this to be a big factor... their message and feelings seem pretty much identical to those of the professional activists.
--- End quote ---
Over the years, in general I have not found that... But the venues today seem to be different from what they were.
--- Quote ---Thank you for understanding. As you mentioned earlier, biology is a factor that cannot be erased. While it's been discussed before, the boards usually censor such conversations. The concept of reproductive instinct affecting people's reactions and attitudes just cannot be allowed to exist.
--- End quote ---
Which of course is nonsense.
--- Quote ---There are people where I grew up who absolutely can't pass. They have a specific name.
--- End quote ---
I assume you mean transvestites... I can assure you there are "real" TSes who very often get read have never been transvestites... I have known such people in 3D and I can assure you they are real... just with unfortunate physical features (more so than me)
--- Quote --- And while activists are now trying hard to make it so, that name has not to date been seen as derogatory. And while people do see them as "other" they are an accepted part of society—generally gravitating toward entertainment and bar businesses.
--- End quote ---
I have known very passable TSes who starred out as female impersonators MANY years ago because that is what they need to do to survive at teh time, who had SRS and now have been stealth for decades and married to men for many years...
--- Quote ---As for anti-discrimination laws over time having a positive effect... I don't know your history well enough to comment.
--- End quote ---
Think race. Still a long way to go, but there has been progress. I remember the 60's... and lived in the inner city projects back then.
--- Quote ---I believe it's not wrong to wish for normalcy.
--- End quote ---
Of course not.
--- Quote ---And that trying to convince people it's unattainable is detrimental.
--- End quote ---
But telling them it is ALWAYS possible for everyone can be just as detrimental... The truth is important and the truth is on average, the later in life one starts the more difficult it can be and not EVERYONE can get there just because they need to... and those people need respect.
-karen
zirconia:
--- Quote from: karen_A on July 05, 2020, 01:02:53 PM ---I don't know what the percentages are but I would say a significant number can pass, and a significant number can't ALL the time... but both groups deserve to live their lives in dignity and be respected.
--- End quote ---
I agree.
--- Quote from: karen_A on July 05, 2020, 01:02:53 PM ---So what is some one who IS TS and has tried all the could and and asked all by transitioning, but can't pass all the time think of themselves? As a fake?... That is the message most of the non-T's (and a few TSes who do pass) give to them... That can do a number on them on the long run.
--- End quote ---
I agree. What I don't understand is the dissuasion from trying I've seen. Mostly by people who seem to feel it is ultimately detrimental. Put very bluntly their attitude often seems similar to someone moving to America, declaring one is an American without getting nationalized, and disregarding the local customs. What puzzles me is why these voices get accolades.
--- Quote from: karen_A on July 05, 2020, 01:02:53 PM ---One think to remember is that passing is not synonymous beauty.
--- End quote ---
True. And I guess it feels good to be lauded as beautiful even if one does not pass. However, the general trend seems to be to laud everyone with comments such as "I see nothing but a beautiful woman" when asked for feedback on passing. I don't know how that helps anyone who is actually trying to. Rather it would to me seem to create false expectations.
I remember one member at Susan's who actually did try to give fair, kind and truthful feedback on a thread called "Do I pass" or something like that. Dena might know the details, but it seemed to me she deleted her account due to the responses she got.
--- Quote from: karen_A on July 05, 2020, 01:02:53 PM ---Society does need to change in two it treats people who are seen as different be it for race or changing sex... They are right in that being invisible does not promote change... and some who pass very well do chose to be out, but all those who pass are under no obligation to be out... Those who say all need to be out or all need to be stealth are extremist out of touch with reality and don't really care about individual's lives and needs.
--- End quote ---
Humans are animals... and I completely agree with what you earlier mentioned about our biological programming. Do you believe it is possible to override it?
I personally doubt it. In my view the way both women and men relate to and treat each other is largely determined by the mating instinct—which is borne out by the similarities present throughout the world regardless of culture.
Equality in front of law is possible. But to expect to be treated just like a normal woman even if one is not instinctually sensed to be such would to me seem a stretch of imagination.
Those indistinguishable from girls in general invite more curiosity than animosity. And that I guess can be capitalized on by those who don't. Which I suspect is one motivation for the coercion to be "out" that I see.
--- Quote from: karen_A on July 05, 2020, 01:02:53 PM ---Not only but the latter one does, on average (there are always exceptions) the harder it gets.
--- End quote ---
I agree.
--- Quote from: karen_A on July 05, 2020, 01:02:53 PM ---That is ridiculous... Of course when I transitioned, those I knew going through it then, everyone's goal was to pass well... Not everyone made it there however.
--- End quote ---
I agree. Yet the voices that dissuade people from trying, and instead aim for self-acceptance seem the most lauded. Why is this?
--- Quote from: karen_A on July 05, 2020, 01:02:53 PM ---I depends nohow things go... If they are not working out one has to find a way to make peace with where they can get to (or find a way to cope it with - and some coping methods are not very healthy)
--- End quote ---
I understand. Yet, here again, whenever someone new comes along, everyone seems to emphasize transition as a wonderful journey... that leads to being "transgender" forever. LOL.
--- Quote from: karen_A on July 05, 2020, 01:02:53 PM ---But that is what it is. When you change how you live your life to such a great extent you experience many different things that can cause you to grow and change... think of it as an adolescent discovering who they are , often trying many different things to figure who exactly they are and how they fit into the world... But adolescence is not (or should not) be forever...
--- End quote ---
Hmm... I do have a lot to learn in regard to the ways of men and women...♡
But other than that, doesn't learning follow any move, whether it be to a new country or even city? At least I would consider transition to be the move itself. Isn't learning what we need on arrival just a normal part of life?
As for changes to one's life—which ones do you refer to? What I've felt to date is mostly release from having to consciously control how I speak and move. And that both my male and female friends and relatives relate to me differently. And the men I know are much more protective. Oh... and I don't get as many unnecessary business cards. LOL. As for strangers—I stopped correcting them some years ago, so I doubt whether I'll see much of a change.
Be that as it may, I did find statements such as "Transition is a journey that is over when you want it to, and leads to wherever you wish" to be unhelpful. They certainly increased my anxiety.
--- Quote from: karen_A on July 05, 2020, 01:02:53 PM ---I grew up at time when one really needed to be able to pass well to even be treated, and treatment of children was not even thought about... And by teh 8th grade I was bigger then most men... There is a reason why even though I was stealing out of house dressed in my mothers clothes in teh 6-7th grade, I never though doing anything about it was possible for me... and when I started therapy with a gender therapist at 39 it was hard to even tell her why i was there...I was so afraid of dealing with thus that I would wind up alone and on the streets...
It took awhile but it got to the point that not at least trying despite the odds was unbearable... and I can assure you I wanted (still do really) to be seen as normal woman.
--- End quote ---
It must have been absolutely horrible... I know that with the first signs of puberty I felt the world come to an end. And the dread of what awaited had lain heavy on me for a long time even before then. I can only feel for you... and hope you've found your way to where you are happy and at peace.
--- Quote from: karen_A on July 05, 2020, 01:02:53 PM ---I assume you mean transvestites... I can assure you there are "real" TSes who very often get read have never been transvestites... I have known such people in 3D and I can assure you they are real... just with unfortunate physical features (more so than me)
--- End quote ---
LOL... No. The transliteration of the local word for transvestite would be "People whose hobby is to dress in women's clothes." It's a different category.
My point was that in some cultures those who absolutely know they don't pass don't insist on being seen as Real Women who are in every way the same as normal women. They accept themselves as they are, different, and are accepted as such by others. And that in itself does not have to be inherently bad.
--- Quote from: karen_A on July 05, 2020, 01:02:53 PM ---Think race. Still a long way to go, but there has been progress. I remember teh 60's... and lived in teh inner city projects back then.
--- End quote ---
Again, this is way beyond my ken. I described the only direct experience I had with the American situation in the link I gave.
--- Quote from: karen_A on July 05, 2020, 01:02:53 PM ---But telling them it is ALWAYS possible for everyone can be just as detrimental... The truth is important and the truth is on average, the later in life one starts the more difficult it can be and not EVERYONE can get there just because they need to... and those people need respect.
--- End quote ---
I've never seen anyone say it is possible for everyone... but the opposite definitely. And that we shouldn't even try.
As for respect—isn't that obvious? But respect needs to be earned and upkept... and some of the things I've seen (e.g. the incident here that gave birth to the local ordinance prohibiting males from using female spaces, and a foreign non-op insisting on going to the women's public bath) don't seem to take that into account.
Edit: Missing words
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