Zirconia just joined the Susan's Permaban Club!

[zirconia]

So, fellow members...

A few days ago I found some posts by a very interesting woman on Susan's who had completed treatment in 1974. She'd not been active since 2016. I found her story of survival against all odds moving and intriguing, and browsed through her threads, making notes of posts I thought lovely or thoughtful.

However, when I later went back to look at this one, I got the following message instead:

The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you.

Hmmm... I already knew the moderators were watching me. And following me around if they want to is their right, I guess. Deleting someone else's post—or perhaps even a thread—because I led them to it seemed a bit too much.

It was clear from what she wrote that the woman in question had been ostracized and attacked on the forums. As those who have been assimilated a long time ago tend to be. And now something she'd written had been censored pretty certainly because I'd read it. I felt sad. She seemed an absolutely lovely person so I wrote her, a PM, hoping to make contact. And on impulse, motivated by sympathy toward her and vague disgust at what had happened, added my own diagnosis to a thread she'd also posted on.

The Administrator quickly pitched in, commenting on how "the medical terminology has changed," lauding the terms de jour. A moderator followed singing the praise of their "inclusivity." I replied that diagnoses and diagnostic codes are not meant to be inclusive. Rather they're meant to be specific and exclusive. LOL.

But... since the thread itself still seems to exists those interested may take a look at the link above. In case it's deleted I guess I may go into more detail... or post the backup I took just in case.

What's of interest is that the subject of the discussion that followed was the correct use of diagnostic codes and medical terminology. However, a few hours ago I got the following message:

Sorry zirconia, you are banned from using this forum!
TOS #5, ridiculing a transgender person's identity and course of treatment
This ban is not set to expire.

Interesting. My final post on the thread had been deleted in its entirety. So I guess it was the one the Administrator found offensive. And, since due to the ban I'm also prevented from protesting in accordance to the site terms of service I guess... (fanfare...) I won't.٩(๑❛ᴗ❛๑)۶

Why should I? It's their site. I joined because someone needed information I had. I stayed because I hoped to find information that might help me... but didn't. Instead I was found by someone who helped me. And since they also banned her I guess this is an honor...٩( ᐛ )و

Even so, I am puzzled what in my post justifies banning me. But since the ban is not set to expire I'll never be able ask the moderators directly. So—I guess I'll just post what they deleted below in the hope that they may perchance see this, and hopefully let me know where in it they saw anyone's identity or course of treatment mentioned...

or ridiculed...

Oh, and of course everyone else is also welcome to comment. (=^ェ^=)

[zirconia]

Hi, Devlyn

Unspecified in this instance does not mean the problem wasn't known, it simply means that I didn't specifically fit into any of the other categories such as F64.0 (transsexual), F64.1 (Dual-role transvestism), F64.2 (gender dysphoria in childhood), or F64.8 (gender dysphoria, other)

Did you read the link? What did it state the purpose of .9 to be? And, if you did any further research, those of .8, and .89?

I'm genderfluid, non-binary. I embrace a male side and a female side. I desired feminization of my body, which was achieved through HRT and GRS (orchiectomy). This is consistent with the WPATH guidelines:
(Loooonng quote from WPATH Standards of Care for the Health of Transsexual, Transgender, and Gender- Nonconforming People)

LOL. Devlyn... yes, I've read the WPATH Standards of Care for the Health of
Transsexual,
Transgender,
and
Gender- Nonconforming People

...in three languages, actually, semi-amusedly comparing how the nuances change based on language and culture. But I found no mention of appropriate diagnostic codes, their meaning, or use—which I believe the subject of our discussion to have been.

(As an aside, why in your opinion is the full title of the publication never written out in full in discussions like this?)

... I suspect that I have worked in the medical field for exactly the same amount of time you have. In any event, that doesn't matter, I leave the doctoring to the doctors.

I considered for a long moment what to reply, but in the name of anonymity decided the following should suffice:

I suspect you're wrong.

I base my suspicion on your fairly obvious ignorance of the diagnostic codes' use beyond billing purposes.

And also on your apparent evasion of my simple question, perhaps because replying to it might reveal either lack of foundation in regard to a subject you made claims to—or alternatively lack of knowledge in regard to a subject that you should have knowledge about. (While, I sort of suspect, perhaps also trying to disguise that evasion as a schoolyard-subtle attempt to also discredit me... LOL. I found that amusing.)

Fortunately, they did indeed know how to code everything and get me the surgery I desired, my primary care physician, therapist, and the psychiatrist who reviewed my case are all women.

Does getting what you want change the official meaning of the code? Or its use? LOL

While we're talking about codes, and how pedantic you are about them, here are some of my favourites:

I disbelieve that simply pointing out a mistake is usually termed as pedantic... but do thank you for searching for some of the more specific codes in the list. None of which, as you see, end in .9 or even 89. Because the etiology and condition are clearly known. LOL

Pen pushers and accountants need ICD codes, it is after all a billing system. But in this technicolour world we live in, and the glorious spectrum that we are all part of, ICD codes aren't much to hang your hat on.

And yet you also have mentioned your diagnostic code F64.9 more than once... why is that?

I regretfully have suffered a W22.02 incident...

Thank you, Ellie. As you see, speaking in code in real life is not very intelligible. Which is why we use words. But—as Devlyn very efficiently demonstrated above, their specificity is extremely important in the field they are used in. They give an instant picture of the causes as well as the conditions. Which are then further fleshed out by the anamnesis.

Another interesting factoid is that the final written out description of the condition, following the code, remains constant. Thus, in plain language my official diagnosis will forever be transsexualism. And while properly used codes that end in 9 may change after further testing and examination, barring that Devlyn's will forever remain Gender Dysphoria, unspecified. Regardless of how changing political correctness may twist language into new shapes in the future.

Again demonstrating that medicine is not an umbrella.

[Maddie]

Not surprisied.

Should've kissed their butt instead. 
I do that, or I just leave that forum for a while when I feel atracked, (usually by that admin)
I didn't post once in 2017 because I was so mad then.

I recently compared D to a Nazi and was "brought before Susan" for it.  Actually my comparison wasn't directed at D, but she seemed to take it on and get defensive and said she was offended by me.
Sometimes I compliment her.  Not fake.  Just disconnected.   I'm immune and not hostile.  Not as afraid to be wrong. 
They are horrified of being questioned..  Must be rough. Too bad for them and their life.

[Complete]

They are horrified of being questioned..  Must be rough. Too bad for them and their life

It really is to bad for them. They not only exist in a Twilight reality, neither fish nor fowl, and must militantly defend their lifestyle. You are correct. They are horrified face of evident facts that contradict the fallacy they are forced to live by.

[karen_A]

Even so, I am puzzled what in my post justifies banning me.

I obviously can not say for sure... BUT i will tell you that one the years the most divisive thing I have seen in online forums that has sunk more than few was belief that some were setting up a T* hierarchy, with stealth perfectly passable post-ops at the top.

Anything that even hints at something like that would be a threat to a general board like that (never mind the owner's income in this case!) I have seen it tear forums apart ...

Non mainstream livestyle stuff in general tends to polarize people... even in the T* community.

I was once on a post-op only mailing list with over a hundred member with a number going back to the 70's as well as recent post-ops, some stealth or decades and some out. Basically a pretty diverse group that got along ok and was really good... for awhile...

The list eventually self destructed... but it was not over stealth or out, but between those who were plain vanilla and those into S&M!!!

Anyway I really do think that some important things for people just starting the process can't get discussed on that board and that is very unfortunate given it's high profile... but those discussions can be very difficult, highly emotional, and hurtful for some as well as controversial, making them difficult to moderate in a way that does not let things spin out of control into all out war .. (and I have seen all out war between TSes - and it extended to real lives off the net!)

-Karen

[Complete]

....the most divisive thing I have seen in online forums that has sunk more than few was believe that some were setting up a T* hierarchy, with stealth perfectly passable post-ops at the top.

I actually agree with you on this. Where l think we might disagree is on the source of this fallacious belief.
I also agree that...

Anything that even hints at something like that would be a threat to a general board like that (never mind the owner's income in this case!) I have seen it tear forums apart ...

The problem with this classic false flag/red herring is that the "offended" party sets out or defines/creates an offence, blames an innocent party whose appearance/accomplishments/or perceived status they envy, then demonize and ostracized them.
This deplorable, devious tactic effectively removes those whose very being loudly proclaims the fallacy of their claims.

those discussions can be very difficult, highly emotional, and hurtful fro some as well as controversial,

Gee....l guess "transition" is not any of those things. Can someone so fragile that they cannot endure a "difficult", or "controversial" online discussion or debate emotionally ready for the real life  stresses of gender transition?

[zirconia]

They are horrified of being questioned..  Must be rough. Too bad for them and their life.

Yes. Rejection of questioning does make it hard to see truth, doesn't it?

I obviously can not say for sure... BUT i will tell you that one the years the most divisive thing I have seen in online forums that has sunk more than few was believe that some were setting up a T* hierarchy, with stealth perfectly passable post-ops at the top.

Anything that even hints at something like that would be a threat to a general board like that (never mind the owner's income in this case!) I have seen it tear forums apart ...

Hmmmm... OK.

But... the subject was the purpose, meaning and proper use of diagnostic codes in the field of medicine. How is that related to transhierarchies? Or ridicule toward anyone's identity or course of treatment?

As for difficulty of moderation... Dena, if you don't mind, which parts of the above post do you think you'd have censored, and how would you have gone about it? Alternatively, in what way would you have intervened?

The problem with this classic false flag/red herring is that the "offended" party sets out or defines/creates an offence, blames an innocent party whose appearance/accomplishments/or perceived status they envy, then demonize and ostracized them.
This deplorable, devious tactic effectively removes those whose very being loudly proclaims the fallacy of their claims.

I believe that to at least in part be the reason the member I mentioned stopped posting. Seeing things like that doesn't feel nice. I can't understand why people seem more apt to treat them like objects of hate than sources of wisdom and motivation.

Gee....l guess "transition" is not any of those things. Can someone so fragile that they cannot endure a "difficult", or "controversial" online discussion or debate emotionally ready for the real life  stresses of gender transition?

LOL.

[Kiera]

      Well, it seems @Maddie is the last/lone survivor?

.

[karen_A]

Yes. Rejection of questioning does make it hard to see truth, doesn't it?

Hmmmm... OK.

But... the subject was the purpose, meaning and proper use of diagnostic codes in the field of medicine. How is that related to transhierarchies? Or ridicule toward anyone's identity or course of treatment?

As i said nothing at even hints of it could be an issue... and I think the way you were talking about the codes could see to hint of that to someone predisposed to worry about or feel potentially slighted by that. Anything that subdivides T diagnoses coudl seem to be headed in that direction to people predisposed to think that,

As for difficulty of moderation... Dena, if you don't mind, which parts of the above post do you think you'd have censored, and how would you have gone about it? Alternatively, in what way would you have intervened?

As I thought I explained, what I thought about was when those type of discussion really got going... IMO this case was an over reaction because they thought you were going to make tha kind of "trouble" there.

I believe that to at least in part be the reason the member I mentioned stopped posting. Seeing things like that doesn't feel nice. I can't understand why people seem more apt to treat them like objects of hate than sources of wisdom and motivation.

Quote from: Complete on Yesterday at 08:25:18 PM

Gee....l guess "transition" is not any of those things. Can someone so fragile that they cannot endure a "difficult", or "controversial" online discussion or debate emotionally ready for the real life  stresses of gender transition?

LOL.

I am disappointed in teh lack of understanding and empathy in those comments... What about someone who has transitioned and is having problems passing, is depressed because of how things are going and then get put down by "successful" post-ops (which early on many put on pedestals)?

Where is the understanding, empathy and  heart? At different times people in active transition CAN be in fragile places. Lots of very traumatic things happen for many early on!

-Karen

[zirconia]

Well, it seems @Maddie is the last/lone survivor? I was orginally only BANNED 1 year so will see what happens come Christmas.

Welcome if you will... ❤️

Is "stealth" and keeping "under the radar"
the same thing?

Hmmmm...
A non-passing acquaintance lives a solitary life, venturing out mainly at hours when people are asleep. And avoids unnecessary contact with the world at large. That I'd class keeping under the radar.

As for stealth... it was very concisely and nicely described by the person whose posts I was researching as an intermediary step before assimilation. I thought that made sense.

As i said nothing at even hints of it could be an issue... and I think the way you were talking about the codes could see to hint of that to someone predisposed to worry about or feel potentially slighted by that. Anything that subdivides T diagnoses coudl seem to be headed in that direction to people predisposed to think that.

What I said about diagnostic codes and their use is a simple, easily verifiable fact. I feel that denying facts is to live in delusion. And I feel promulgating false information to be irresponsible. But I guess that is beside the point.

If, as you seem to think, the ban was a pre-emptive measure to prevent what I was "going to do" in the future, I find claiming it was due to "ridiculing a transgender person's identity and course of treatment" rather.... well, I can't even come up with a good word. A blatant, bare-faced lie? Or can you suggest a better, gentler and more appropriate expression?

I believe that to at least in part be the reason the member I mentioned stopped posting. Seeing things like that doesn't feel nice. I can't understand why people seem more apt to treat them like objects of hate than sources of wisdom and motivation.

Gee....l guess "transition" is not any of those things. Can someone so fragile that they cannot endure a "difficult", or "controversial" online discussion or debate emotionally ready for the real life  stresses of gender transition?

LOL.

I am disappointed in teh lack of understanding and empathy in those comments... What about someone who has transitioned and is having problems passing, is depressed because of how things are going and then get put down by "successful" post-ops (which early on many put on pedestals)?

Where is the understanding, empathy and  heart? At different times people in active transition CAN be in fragile places. Lots of very traumatic things happen for many early on!

Karen...

It saddens me that you feel laughing at a situation that is ridiculous indicates absence of understanding, empathy or heart.

While discussions on the boards have greatly confused me, they never made me cry. On the other hand, I've cried through the night until the morning more times than I can remember over the pain of what I was about to do. The price I knew I'd pay.

And Complete was there the whole time, every time. With me, at the other end of the line. Offering no platitudes, but just the truth. Jagged, cold and raw. But with incredible sympathy, care and warmth.

During a brief private interaction between Elisabeth and myself she also offered me the truth. And concern about what she believed might be mistaken motivation. Knowing there was a possibility I might hate her for that. She didn't try to wrap me in cotton wool, but instead tried to make sure that I looked at things with a clear mind. No sugar. But no malice either.

They are where I want to be. No.... they are where I need to be. The only place that can possibly give me peace. They both told me what the path they took was like. And each warned me in her own way I couldn't cross over without paying the price.

That price is high. Much of the talk on the forums revolves around how to avoid paying it. Those most vocal advocate a completely different destination. A path and destination that terrified me. A destination that they themselves somewhere know to be different. And blame their plight and choice on a myriad factors.

It really is of no concern to me what you think of me. If you indeed feel I lack understanding, empathy and heart then so be it. But even I went back to Susan's in part because I felt concern about some there who were in dire enough straits that platitudes simply could not help. When in hell, stories of sunflowers are useless. I don't know whether I could have helped either, in the end. But read nuances and pose questions I could. And that is the best I could offer. I hate not ever knowing what their fate will be... but at the same time relieved that I no longer need to spend energy on filtering out the cacophony of confusion that seems to only increase with time.

Let me close with a quote I gleaned from the research that ultimately led to my ban. To me it crystallizes the message of everyone who has been assimilated to those still searching.

It isn't about age dear. I requires a willingness, an anxiousness to let go of the old mind-set, to recognize you are "starting over", and to be willing to start from ZERO. The more a person tries to hang on to the less they will "transition".

Is that not a clear message of hope?

Edit: Clarity

[Complete]

From Zirconia:

And I feel promulgating false information to be irresponsible. But I guess that is beside the point.

I think it is much more than just irresponsible. It is dangerously selfish.
It puts the self feelings of the liars above those of those genuinely seeking truth and quidence.

[karen_A]

It saddens me that you feel laughing at a situation that is ridiculous indicates absence of understanding, empathy or heart.

Were you laughing with Complete's quote or AT it?

Why would someone getting hurt because of an on-line conversation be ridiculous? It happens... some times badly.

While discussions on the boards have greatly confused me, they never made me cry.

Years ago it happened to me a few times. There are times in transition when one's self confidence can be at a very low ebb and one can be very vulnerable to some things.

On the other hand, I've cried through the night until the morning more times than I can remember over the pain of what I was about to do. The price I knew I'd pay.

Often one can't know for sure what that price will be (or how things will turn out no matter what you do) , but fear the worst ... which was the case for me.

And Complete was there the whole time, every time. With me, at the other end of the line. Offering no platitudes, but just the truth.

The truth as she sees it... Sometimes truth is relative and sometimes absolute when it comes to life. It's not alway clear which is which.

During a brief private interaction between Elisabeth and myself she also offered me the truth. And concern about what she believed might be mistaken motivation. Knowing there was a possibility I might hate her for that.

Some of your posts recently made me wonder about something like that-  I thought about asking you some pointed questions...

I debated a couple of days if I should bering it up. In the end I decided we did not have enough of relationship to do it, and I figured, given things you have posted, it would likely not have been seriously considered.

It really is of no concern to me what you think of me.

Then I'm glad I did not bring the thing up!

Let me close with a quote I gleaned from the research that ultimately led to my ban. To me it crystallizes the message of everyone who has been assimilated to those still searching.

It isn't about age dear. I requires a willingness, an anxiousness to let go of the old mind-set, to recognize you are "starting over", and to be willing to start from ZERO. The more a person tries to hang on to the less they will "transition".

NorthernJane... She posted regularly on a different forum I have been on a very long time. She posted regularly there from 2007 to 2014 so i know a bit about her... or did (memory is not what it used to be )

Is that not a clear message of hope?

Depends on one's situation.

-karen

[zirconia]

Were you laughing with Complete's quote or AT it?

Hi Karen

I was laughing at the memory of the pain and confusion within whose vortex I was being torn apart. The memory of the confusion that was intensified by the well-meant pontification on the boards, and belittlement of what I felt essential. And of the relief that the truth "as Complete sees it" brought me.

The mixture of relief and pain, actually... although the new hurt was of a completely different nature.

If the pain I'd always felt was that of having a scarred-in stake through my heart the new pain was that of pulling it out. Because on seeing it I saw that to heal it would need to be removed. And that I could not survive unless it was.

So... to me at least there was no comparison. The advocacy on the boards to leave the stake in place was a source of confusion, which did exacerbate my pain but was not its cause.

I hope that helps...
If I think of something to add later I may.

Edit: Clarity

[Complete]

Zirconia,

*

A popular meme of the trans world is that "transition" is different for everybody".
Spelled out in simple terms this also means that for "some" it works out better than than for others. Is that the fault of those that did happen to succeed?

And the fact is that those who have successfully moved beyond the trans world/condition just might have something to offer. Something they've gleaned from actually having survived the process and moved easily into the "non-trans" world. Carrying no regrets.... and no irksome reminders.....If others are just willing to listen.
In fact, l am sorry that so many find my words offensive.
I am sorry that l must stand by helplessly, unable to help, as so many forge ahead into the darkness and the unknown.

Edit - 04 Aug 2020 - Christine

[Complete]

Quote from Zirconia:

Let me close with a quote I gleaned from the research that ultimately led to my ban. To me it crystallizes the message of everyone who has been assimilated to those still searching.

From Northern Jane:

It isn't about age dear. I requires a willingness, an anxiousness to let go of the old mind-set, to recognize you are "starting over", and to be willing to start from ZERO. The more a person tries to hang on to the less they will "transition".

Quote from Zirconia:

Is that not a clear message of hope?

"Depends on one's situation."

-karen

I'm think this final statement from karen clearly and succinctly highlights the importance of context.
Clearly in the context of Zirconia's situation, N.Jane's missive offers hope, albeit with caveat of a painfully high price. Apparently Karen's situation offers a different context. Hence a differing interpretation of Northern Jane's message

[zirconia]

Complete,

Thank you... yes. I was saddened by Jane's words' dismissal, but I guess they may not offer hope to everyone.
But even so, surely they can never be seen as untruthful or lacking in kindness?

[zirconia]

Ah... yes... Yes, now I know what so bothered me. So let me continue.

The truth as she sees it... Sometimes truth is relative and sometimes absolute when it comes to life. It's not alway clear which is which.

Karen,

It may be that you missed my point.

What I wanted to say was that Complete, whose lack of understanding and empathy you just deplored, was there for me every minute of my worst suffering. And understood every word wrought of my pain.

Those at the forums did try to force feed me their truth. However, speaking with Complete was entirely different. The truth "as she saw it" was that of deep understanding—not external dogma.

It was recognition of my pain and need.

The pain that she acknowledged and sympathized with. The pain she knew because she'd also been there, and knew my struggle. The pain she knew and acknowledged to be inevitable should I in earnest reach for what I knew I needed.

And the need whose fulfillment could make it end.

She was the first who understood instead of trying to lead me. And that made me feel safer than I can describe.

[karen_A]

I was laughing at the memory of the pain and confusion within whose vortex I was being torn apart.

You have have mentioned confusion here and a number of other times... But what were you confused about?

I ask because I never felt confused. 

I knew what i wanted and felt i needed, and I knew some do make it, but I also knew the the odds were very much against me. I felt plenty of fear. If you knew how I grew up you would know why trying for what seems impossible, giving up control and trusting things would work out is extremely  difficult for me (childhood situation that had nothing to do with being TS but left deep  emotional scars and stunted normal social development- well that and being TS on top of it), and caused me to develop a strong sense of responsibility.  Leaps of faith were not part of who I was or am....

When i was transitioning was back in the time when the TG moment was just rising and activists were arguing that passing was not necessary and stealth harmful.  I never bought into into it and still don't... As I mentioned I was active on the net in T spaces back to the mid 90's (and lurked earlier) so lot's of people in the community knew of me.

When i had my FFS with Dr. O in 1999 while I was recuperating Davies in SF, Gwen Ann Smith (who was there with someone else who was having a consult with Dr. O) came up to visit me while she was waiting ... If you don't know who she is she has been an activist for a long time and is the founder of the "transgender Day of Remembrance" ... And we argued about her positions for an hour.

I was never confused about what I wanted but had good reason to doubt it was possible.

I was torn apart by the conflict between what i wanted, love and responsibility, and what seemed possible for me...

It seemed to me that a basic prerequisite for what was possible for me in the now trans aware world would depend on being able to at least passing reliably to strangers on looks all the time. Without that it seemed to me drastic changes would  likely have resulted in poverty and two lives being destroyed ... and still being read and seen as "other"...

To me passing means passing regardless of how dressed (or not), put together or not... No one is put together all the time and if you have to thing about putting oneself together to PASS (not just look good) one is always just passing and not just being socially.

I never got there, even with FFS and now even with 23+ years on HRT...

This morning early (because it was supposed to be a very hot humid day) I drove to where I work. No one was there at 7:45Am on a Sunday morning of course!... It is next to an office park that has a very nice 2.8 mile jogging path that I power walk (and time myself) every day for exercise.

When i got back there after teh walk, a cop was there... For some reason the burgler alarm went off. As I walked up to him he said "Sir, do you work here"... At that point he had only seen me... I had not spoken a word etc... I was waring pink shorts, a loose T-shirt , sneakers and cap (to keep teh sun out of my eyes)... I was all sweaty and my hair a mess from the walk.

I replied "That's Mam and yes I do"... I let him into the building and we looked around... and he dressed me as Sir again... I decided best not to say anything more.

As I said I have a very unfortunate build/frame for  aTS, and HRT did very little for me outside of improving my skin and decreasing muscle mass a bit... But fat redistribution into typical female patterns never happened.

I was never confused about what I wanted, but I needed SOME indication it was possible for ME in this day and age. I did all I knew how to, but I always got enough feedback from strangers to know I could never count on being able to take passing for granted... and without that trying to be stealth is pointless IMO.

There comes a point in time after one one has done all one can that one has to face with reality and play out the hand they have been dealt the best they can, trying to limit the damage to oneself and those one cares about.

To be honest if I had gotten to that point of passibility I'm not sure what i would have done... It would have been a even more difficult decision that transitioning or having SRS or FFS or other things I did..

As to  why I think it would have been more difficult than for most, I would need to share some private things that are not my place to talk about.

In any case to this day I am not confused about what i wanted, and how much it meant to me... But I am a survivor, so i don't blindly walk off cliffs,  and I live up to my responsibilities.

So what were you confused about?

-Karen

[karen_A]

She was the first who understood instead of trying to lead me. And that made me feel safer than I can describe.

My approach is not to be cheerleader, just to try and make sure that people see the positive and negative possibilities and have a realistic outlook about both for THEIR situation and coping abilities.

Too often only one side gets emphasized.. Which is why in some fora I've been hated by the T* activists and others by the deep stealth is the only way people. When you get hit from both extremes you have to figure you are doing something right!

I'm a very pragmatic and cautious person, that tries to look at facts to decide what I should do rather than just doing what I want no matter how much... The few times I have not done that have mostly not turned out for the best.

-Karen

[Kiera]

A non-passing acquaintance lives a solitary life, venturing out mainly at hours when people are asleep. And avoids unnecessary contact with the world at large. That I'd class . .

So true! You can call me "Clara"

       While I've never been arrested for impersonating with daughter and kids moving home suppose I'll be driven out to the early morning streets? Never actually tried to pass but one could describe my dress as "comfortable" . .

Tee & underwear, especially with our hot weather of late?

. . saddens me that you feel laughing at a situation that is ridiculous indicates absence of understanding, empathy or heart.

        Well duh! Precisely why I stay close to home?