Zirconia just joined the Susan's Permaban Club!

[zirconia]

Karen,

I don't have very much time because I need to work. My apologies if I'm not able to reply clearly enough.

I have had both good and bad online relationships with people with experiences like her... It's about how the person interacts with me. Life is too short to keep arguing with someone who tends to try and inflame emotions using loaded words.

I guess I've done what I can... and as I see Complete responded as well I perhaps should in this reply concern myself only with all else.

It sounded me from what you posted previously that she helped you sort out your confusion.

Did you find my description unclear? If so, please consider the relationship between yourself and your brother. Is it that of master and disciple?

Alternatively, think of those who have stayed by you as you cried, responding to your grief not with platitudes but with absolute honesty and concern? Are they your masters?

Don't mistake suggesting things to be considered as the same thing as  suggesting specific courses of actions... My purpose when i say the types of things is to help make sure someone is not having tunnel vision cause by wanting something very very much... It's not to persuade or dissuade from a specific course, just to try and make sure they are seeing the whole picture.

By saying this do you imply Complete persuaded or dissuaded me from a specific course?

Some of things you have posted here and at Susan's made me wonder if you did not have some degree of tunnel vision.

Judging from your comment below it would appear you now not only wonder... but also suspect I may.

Without knowing what culture you were brought up in, it's hard for me to understand it's consequences.

I understand. That is all right.

After the rise of TG philosophy the "community" became very fractured.

I transitioned in a different time than now, and in general I have been mostly in forums that were primarily TS focused rather than general TG.

Does that change what I saw where I visited, how it made me feel, or the fact that you repeatedly responded to me by saying what you saw during your thirty years where you frequented differed? Or make your observations from back then more relevant to what mine have been in the present?

For life in the long run I equate stealth with assimilation because without assimilation stealth would feel like a straightjacket...  It would be a hard work rather than just "being" which is (or should be) the point of transition... Without assimilation, stealth would not be emotionally sustainable IMO.

I feel Northern Jane's definition is a good one.

Of course that brings up the question of one needs to be stealth for assimilation... In general I think so, but some disagree.

I fail to understand the relevance of this to the subject at hand.

For many it certainly is like a step off a cliff not knowing for sure if there is a lake underneath or just rocks... I think age at transition I think has big effect on that... Quiet frankly I never understood those that wait until they aer in their 60's to transition... in fact I thought the age I transitioned was already awfully late to be able to have a normal life and really assimilate (even outside of passing issues)  because so much of life and formational experiences have passed.

I fail to understand the relevance of this to the subject at hand.

Never happened to me before being on HRT and completing electrolysis while presenting male... When that did occasionally happen before transitioning, of course I did not correct people.

The stories we see everywhere do differ in many ways.

Many see it as a time learning the things they did not learn because they were brought up as male. After all females are not born with know all aspects of the social role society assigns to females... and it takes them to figure out how best they fit in... that is what being teenager is supposed to be about.

I'm sure many do see it as such.

Fro myself  I always was aware that I was lacking teh socialization of females in this culture... but I was also lacking significant part of male socialization because of teh situation was in growing up.

To live like that until transition must have been truly hard.

Human being are a combination of nature and nurture- the degree varies by individual but no one is fully immune to either ... Nurture/socialization does affect how one acts and interacts with society, and age at transition does have a significant effect on how much the socialization affects one.

To which the story of John/Joan may or may not attest.

I have to say I think there may be a bit of tunnel vision with that... I have a hard time believing anyone really knows the totality of a social role they were not brought up in from the first day of fully living in it... As I said there is a learning curve even for those brought up as girls.

I in general advocate viewing the entire section for context rather than plucking out a single item. So if you don't mind let's read it again:

And what the doctors told me released me from the curse laid on me at the age of three. If I was a girl regardless of my defective body, it was the cause of my ostracism when growing up. And the pain I'd felt throughout. I was not becoming anything else through accepting treatment. I was just correcting that defect.

The moment I was able to fully accept that I was free. Free to accept how people saw me. Free to move the way my body led me to. Free to not consider how a man must speak in any situation... but to just express what I felt. There were no arduous processes. There was no learning. No rehearsal. I finally felt free to accept being seen and treated female. Even free to for the first time wear overtly "female" articles... since they no longer were a masquerade costume. Just socially accepted attire for a woman.

What was my message? What did I say happened? How did it change things?

If in your view something I did learn made it possible, what do you feel it was?

Or... perhaps you judge what I described to be mere delusion? If so, please be honest, and also justify your conclusion. ٩(๑❛ᴗ❛๑)۶

I hope it works out for you.

Thank you.♡

Having someone being physically attracted to me in either sex is not something I have a lot experience with. In any case I have never felt good about my body (still don't), and that did not help me take care of it.

It's startling when one is still holding on to being male. Later, disconcerting—especially when those who are know one's past. Indescribably exciting when it is someone whose mere presence in the room makes one's whole body sing and breathing labored. And made incredibly frustrating by having to refuse despite wanting it more than anything—because accepting would only end up highlighting one is not yet whole.

While we are not exactly talking about the same thing as for me it went beyond what a between my legs, the physical has always been a big issue for me.

Yes. Some similarities can exist even when stories differ.

[karen_A]

I don't have very much time because I need to work. My apologies if I'm not able to reply clearly enough.

No worries... I'm too tired to really reply to this in depth today.

I guess I've done what I can... and as I see Complete responded as well I perhaps should in this reply concern myself only with all else.

I've not see her post... I think things are better that way.

Did you find my description unclear? If so, please consider the relationship between yourself and your brother.

That relationship was a rocky one... BTW he died many years ago at the age of 32

Alternatively, think of those who have stayed by you as you cried, responding to your grief not with platitudes but with absolute honesty and concern?

If you see what I said as platitudes, then there is not much to talk about... and in any case I don't know you well enough to be very specific in any case. I think we all have cried at times because of having been born TS, I know I have... But I also learned along the  that when it comes to this, no one is completely objective and their "honesty" is mostly opinion.

Judging from your comment below it would appear you now not only wonder... but also suspect I may.

Yes I do... but there is no point going into it.

Does that change what I saw where I visited, how it made me feel, or the fact that you repeatedly responded to me by saying what you saw during your thirty years where you frequented differed? Or make your observations from back then more relevant to what mine have been in the present?

You never seem to take things as i intend them <sigh>... What I was saying is the the "community" has different factions and you just came across teh wrong ones for you ... Places like Susan's do not represent all on-libe TS communities ... What you wanted existed and I'm sure still exists, but mostly in private forums and mailing lists... I am no longer plugged into them because the ones i was on slowly faded away and I did not look for new ones.

I fail to understand the relevance of this to the subject at hand.

I fail to understand the relevance of this to the subject at hand.

Just showing where my thinking is at in general to maybe help you understand where I am coming from overall... My views are often not what people expect given my life.

Anyway I need to get to bed now.

Good night
-karen

[Maddie]

Good night Karen

[zirconia]

Hi, Karen

Thanks again for replying. I noticed something on a reread just now that seems like a misinterpretation so I'd mostly just like to clarify that...

That relationship was a rocky one... BTW he died many years ago at the age of 32.

I'm sorry.

If you see what I said as platitudes, then there is not much to talk about... and in any case I don't know you well enough to be very specific in any case. I think we all have cried at times because of having been born TS, I know I have... But I also learned along the  that when it comes to this, no one is completely objective and their "honesty" is mostly opinion.

This part was about how I got to know Complete. And our relationship. Which I do not see as that of master and disciple. LOL.

This part was not about whether what I see your words as is teachings, truths, wisdom, platitudes, guidance, gospel, philosophy or whatever.

And... you were not by my side when I could do nothing but cry... but had you been, I hope I'm right in that you'd have said something other than what you've said during this conversation.

Because I'd already realized how impossible it would be to reconcile what I'd been clinging on to with my need and the way the world saw me. So these words would just have increased my agony. I already knew I could either try to continue (and wither), or accept that verdict (and maybe live). And since no-one gets to decide how others feel the final logic was simple.

So... if you feel any similarities between my thinking and Complete's are due to her being my master, I must gently repeat: You've acted more as such in this short while than she has during the entire time since we met.

Rather, perhaps I just am amazingly comfortable and at ease when with her exactly because we do think and feel similarly about so many things.

You never seem to take things as i intend them <sigh>... What I was saying is the the "community" has different factions and you just came across teh wrong ones for you ... Places like Susan's do not represent all on-libe TS communities ... What you wanted existed and I'm sure still exists, but mostly in private forums and mailing lists... I am no longer plugged into them because the ones i was on slowly faded away and I did not look for new ones.

Hmmm... OK. Sorry.

Had you said something like "Some people who think like you do exist... but they're mostly on private forums and mailing lists that are pretty hard to find" I'd probably have understood the first time around.

By the way... (and this question does stem from curiosity and laziness since I don't feel like searching for and joining those forums just for this) what percentage was motivated to transition by the need to have heterosexual sex? And how did they handle the situation before SRS?

I ask because I'm finding it increasingly hard to be prudent. LOL. And Complete only discovered men after she was healed.

Oh, and to set your mind at ease, I have always made sure the other party knows my limits and the reason... and will until I am made whole. ٩(๑❛ᴗ❛๑)۶


I also look forward to your reply to the rest of my questions if/when you feel like it.

Edit: Grammar

[zirconia]

This might prove interesting for all bulletin boards that edit or censor content.

https://www.ntia.gov/files/ntia/publications/ntia_petition_for_rulemaking_7.27.20.pdf

Section 230(c)(1) does not immunize a platforms’ own speech, its own editorial decisions or comments, or its decisions to restrict access to content or its bar user from a platform. Second, section 230(c)(2) covers decisions to restrict content or remove users.

(snip)

To ensure clear and consistent interpretation of the “good faith” standard, NTIA requests that the FCC further add the below to newly requested 47 CFR Chapter I Subchapter E Section 130.02:
(e) “good faith”
A platform restricts access to or availability of specific material (including, without limitation, its scope or reach) by itself, any agent, or any unrelated party in “good faith” under 47 U.S.C. § (c)(2)(A) if it:
i. restricts access to or availability of material or bars or refuses service to any person consistent with publicly available terms of service or use that state plainly and with particularity the criteria the interactive computer service employs in its content-moderation practices, including by any partially or fully automated processes, and that are in effect on the date such content is first posted;
ii. has an objectively reasonable belief that the material falls within one of the listed categories set forth in 47 U.S.C. § 230(c)(2)(A);
iii. does not restrict access to or availability of material on deceptive or pretextual grounds, and does not apply its terms of service or use to restrict access to or availability of material that is similarly situated to material that the interactive computer service intentionally declines to restrict; and
iv. supplies the interactive computer service of the material with timely notice describing with particularity the interactive computer service’s reasonable factual basis for the restriction of access and a meaningful opportunity to respond, unless the interactive computer service has an objectively reasonable belief that the content is related to criminal activity or such notice would risk imminent physical harm to others.

(snip)

For purposes of 47 U.S.C. § 230(f)(3), “responsible, in whole or in part, for the creation or development of information” includes substantively contributing to, modifying, altering, presenting or prioritizing with a reasonably discernible viewpoint, commenting upon, or editorializing about content provided by another information content provider.

(snip)

(c) An interactive computer service is not being “treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider” when it actually publishes its own or third-party content. Circumstances in which an interactive computer service actually publishes content include when:
(i) it affirmatively solicits or selects to display information or content either manually by the interactive computer service’s personnel or through use of an algorithm or any similar tool pursuant to a reasonably discernible viewpoint or message, without having been prompted to, asked to, or searched for by the user; and (ii) it reviews third-party content already displayed on the Internet and affirmatively vouches for, editorializes, recommends, or promotes such content to other Internet users on the basis of the content’s substance or messages. This paragraph applies to a review conducted, and a recommendation made, either manually by the interactive computer service’s personnel or through use of an algorithm or any similar tool.

[Kiera]

This might prove interesting for all bulletin boards that edit or censor content.

Found this as well a tad more "readable":

         
          In particular, subparagraph (c)(2) expressly addresses protections from “civil liability” and specifies that an interactive computer service provider may not be made liable “on account of” its decision in “good faith” to restrict access to content that it considers to be “obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, excessively violent, harassing or otherwise objectionable.”  It is the policy of the United States to ensure that, to the maximum extent permissible under the law, this provision is not distorted to provide liability protection for online platforms that — far from acting in “good faith” to remove objectionable content — instead engage in deceptive or pretextual actions (often contrary to their stated terms of service) to stifle viewpoints with which they disagree.

[karen_A]

And... you were not by my side when I could do nothing but cry... but had you been, I hope I'm right in that you'd have said something other than what you've said during this conversation.

While I am someone who tries not to be or sound cruel, I am someone who does not sugar coat things, either to myself or others. I say what I believe to be true, though I try to say it in a way that does not cause UNNECESSARY pain. And if it looks like what I say won't really be considered I don't bother, which why I did not go into what I mentioned earlier.

So... if you feel any similarities between my thinking and Complete's are due to her being my master, I must gently repeat: You've acted more as such in this short while than she has during the entire time since we met.

That is in the eye of the beholder,  I guess, as I don't see things that way nor intended them to be.

By the way... (and this question does stem from curiosity and laziness since I don't feel like searching for and joining those forums just for this) what percentage was motivated to transition by the need to have heterosexual sex? And how did they handle the situation before SRS?

The ones for whom that was an immediate driving force were mostly pretty young (I have no idea how old you are... but for some reason I don't think you are in your early or mid 20's or younger), but it was not theonly factor... but a strong sex drive when young tends to be a significant push.

As to how they handled it, well all over the map. From refraining because they could not bear to be sexual with male genitalia , to finding a guy who could deal with such limitations, to finding one that could deal with the current physicality... And while some found men who would stick with them after SRS, it was not uncommon to hear that the guy loses interest and leaves after SRS regardless of what he said before...  In any case some happy endings but lot's of heartbreak too...

One thing to remember, no matter the passion at first, long term sex is not the most important thing in a relationship... and it can make one emotionally very vulnerable.

Pre-op it's very complicated it seems. I would have never contemplated it pre-op... If my marriage had failed 20 years ago, and I had passed well enough i certainly would have explored that path in depth. What exploring i did before I knew the marriage would survive let me know ...

But as I implied above, for me sex is not the most important thing about a relationship. Having a deep emotionally intimate bond is more important than a physical one or having sex at all IMO.

-Karen

[Christine]

While I am someone who tries not to be or sound cruel, I am someone who does not sugar coat things, ether to myself or others. I say what I believe to be true, though I try to say it in a way that does not cause UNNECESSARY pain. And if it looks like what I say won't really be considered I don't bother, which why I did not go into what I mentioned earlier.
.
One thing to remember, no matter the passion at first, long term sex is not the most important thing in a relationship... and it can make one emotionally very vulnerable.
.
But as I implied above, for me sex is not the most important thing about a relationship. Having a deep emotionally intimate bond is more important than a physical one or having sex at all IMO.

-Karen

@karen_A
Hi Karen,                  02 August 2020

Thank you so much for your beautiful comments. Years ago, for me it was sex and only sex. Eventually, I figured out sex was only a very small part of a relationship. A Deep and Loving Emotional Bond is What Truly Matters the Most; it is What will Insure the Relationship Endures.

God Bless You Young Lady and Thank You Again!

Best Always, Love

Christine

[zirconia]

Hi, Karen

While I am someone who tries not to be or sound cruel, I am someone who does not sugar coat things, either to myself or others. I say what I believe to be true, though I try to say it in a way that does not cause UNNECESSARY pain. And if it looks like what I say won't really be considered I don't bother, which why I did not go into what I mentioned earlier.

It's good to hear you don't sugar coat things. That's what put me so at ease about Complete. That—and of course the fact that she understood exactly how I felt and why. It felt amazing to talk with someone like that after listening to all the theory and dogma that overflowed on the forums.

That is in the eye of the beholder,  I guess, as I don't see things that way nor intended them to be.

Yes... it is in the eye of the beholder. The way you approach and explain things is very similar to how my favorite teacher led us to solve problems in class. But of course both he and we had the same textbooks. The main difference I feel is that in this case you have your thirty years of online experience to draw on, and I only my own story. Plus of course the confusion caused by the fact that it did not at all seem to match what I found on the forums.

The ones for whom that was an immediate driving force were mostly pretty young (I have no idea how old you are... but for some reason I don't think you are in your early or mid 20's or younger), but it was not theonly factor... but a strong sex drive when young tends to be a significant push.

Hmmmm.... interesting. I only felt antipathy toward sex until I was prescribed estradiol. While men had approached me before, and it did feel nice I hadn't even seriously thought of responding. But that changed Very Quickly... LOL.

As to how they handled it, well all over the map. From refraining because they could not bear to be sexual with male genitalia , to finding a guy who could deal with such limitations, to finding one that could deal with the current physicality... And while some found men who would stick with them after SRS, it was not uncommon to hear that the guy loses interest and leaves after SRS regardless of what he said before...  In any case some happy endings but lot's of heartbreak too...

That sounds not too different, then. I'm glad to say that even throughout passion I've been treated very gently and considerately. Although I must not be the only one frustrated by the inability to consummate. Still... my body sings just thinking of every touch.

But, once again, it's getting ever harder to retain the boundaries. And that's mainly what I was interested in hearing about.

One thing to remember, no matter the passion at first, long term sex is not the most important thing in a relationship... and it can make one emotionally very vulnerable.

To me the combination of vulnerability and feeling of absolute safety is what makes it so lovely. But of course that's just me.

Pre-op it's very complicated it seems. I would have never contemplated it pre-op... If my marriage had failed 20 years ago, and I had passed well enough i certainly would have explored that path in depth. What exploring i did before I knew the marriage would survive let me know ...

But as I implied above, for me sex is not the most important thing about a relationship. Having a deep emotionally intimate bond is more important than a physical one or having sex at all IMO.

Hmmmm... now that my body's awakened, I really can't imagine not needing sex. But from what I've heard, with the right partner it does develop into an even more deep thing... not merely physical, but something even more fulfilling. I hope I'll find someone who can give me that, and to whom I can also offer the same. Even now, even knowing that the love I've experienced cannot be permanent or even lasting, the closeness is incredible. I can only imagine what it may be like once I'm made whole.

Complete,

I think I may understand Karen some. What she describes sounds a bit similar to what I felt like before hormones. I saw both girls and boys as just friends... some closer than others. The really close ones felt as close as family... but with no real sexual motivation on my side. Although I could perform if I really felt I needed to to make the other person happy. But I didn't at all understand erotic attraction. The maleness of my body revolted me.

So the closeness had to be emotional. Since my body was wrong, even if the other party was attracted to me it could never truly be physical.

It always comes back to the fact that we all are different, doesn't it? Some are not at all into sex, and some are. I'd never have believed how much I like belonging to the second group until it actually happened... LOL

Removed Quote from Complete's deleted post - Edit by Christine 03 Aug 20