Imprecise Language, Confusion and Conflation

[Complete]

"Transitioning Male to Female
Subjects relating to male to female transitions. Cross dressers and people considering a partial transition may find the information."

What is wrong with this picture?

[MadameDuFromage]

"Transitioning Male to Female
Subjects relating to male to female transitions. Cross dressers and people considering a partial transition may find the information."

What is wrong with this picture?

Obviously I'm not easily offended enough to play this game.  By all means spell it out for me.

[Dena]

Welcome Complete. I might have made a mistake designing the page as it was a two day project. I am also not adverse to making corrections and improvement but I don't see a problem at the moment. The comment as it stands is:

Subjects relating to male to female transitions. Cross dressers and people considering a partial transition may find the information useful.

If I am missing something, let me know and I will correct it.

[zirconia]

Hi everyone. I wondered where you'd gone

Having just been motivated to do a bit of googling after another thread with the word Precision in it was self-destructed somewhere far far away, the title of this one caught my eye.

So... let me venture a guess...
Might it be that transitioning means just that? Becoming a woman... And aren't e.g. fashion, makeup and such perhaps a bit secondary to that goal?

After all they're not truly intrinsic to what we need to accomplish. In fact most women I know outside the fashion industry don't really invest very much effort in them. And even there, at least when I was a model a stylist chose the clothes and an artist did the makeup.

In that sense, might it be that crossdressers may deem such subjects more essential? Although I guess some bits may interest transitioners as well...

[zirconia]

Hm... I see...

I guess I look at transition from the viewpoint that I need to be completely naturally a part of the girl group regardless of occasion.

For example, public bathing is very common here. And towels aren't allowed into the bathing area or the washing area. Nor are swimsuits, for that matter.

And the hot springs are a place for socialization...

So... in my case what I need from transition is being accepted as just another girl even in such situations (and when with men.) Without paraphernalia.

I've lived all my life in an in-between limbo. My absolute need is to escape from the not-quite-either category, become just another woman in the crowd, and enjoy everything that life in the proper body can offer.

Edit: Clarity

[Kirsteneklund7]

"Transitioning Male to Female
Subjects relating to male to female transitions. Cross dressers and people considering a partial transition may find the information."

What is wrong with this picture?

  Now that has got me going for the day Complete ! I will solve this !

  Yours with intrigue, Kirsten.

[Complete]

At the risk of resurrecting the dreaded <not allowed>, I'll provide a clue. Male/Female implicitly describes a physical dichotomy/binary. The antithesis of a spectrum.
Gender, on the other hand conveniently provides for a spectrum.
However, no matter how much gender deconstructionalists might wish, gender, gender roles, gender presentintation does not equate to physical or morphological sex.
"Partial" transition is what?
Some in between world between male and female? No. It is a construct, a narrative used to somehow provide legitimacy for cross dressers/transvestites, AKA transgender.
So... still no conflation? No confusion? It was among the original questions raised on the post that finally got me banned on another site, which has since been completely scrubbed. It was the thread got dangerously close to that dreaded truth.
It is why Classic Transsexuals so strongly object to that intentional conflation. It is why we are so universally banned, disbaraged and abused as elitists, bigoted transphobic haters.
We'll, I'm none of those. I actually sympathize with your pain. I am saddened you were so blinded by the misinformation or theYEHAFC fear that prevented so many of you from realizing your true selves.
What is even more disappointing, is that your fear is so ingrained that you are unable to see or progress beyond it and continue to suffer in that nether world between fish and fowl.

[Complete]

Hi Complete, and welcome in our "new home".  As one old former trans woman to another, would you please be so kind and explain what you mean with your cryptic sentence?  It seems as if I am not the only one who does not get it?
Thanks and hugs
Linde

Thank you for your friendly welcome. And thank you for NOT referring to me as a "trans-woman". I have no affinity for that term and I find that presumed association offensive. Akin to my calling you a trannie.
To your point, l think it is obvious that you are not the only one who "doesn't get it".
Hence our differences.😆

[Complete]

It is certainly not my intention to "hurt(ing) people deliberately and remorselessly".
I thought l was very clear about that. I have every sympathy for transgenders who set unable to complete their transition for whatever reason.
The odd assemblage of letters was the code required to post that was inadvertently misplaced into the message.
I apologise for any hurt or confusion.

FYI: I never mentioned that "other site"😄

[zirconia]

Wow... it feels really nice to see opinions expressed so freely.

Katie, Linde, thank you for not being like moderators I've seen elsewhere. I've felt like I've been treading on eggshells every moment I've spent on some places.

And Complete, that really was the kind of fresh breeze I've always longed for ever since I started looking for ways to escape my torment. I was always afraid that if I tried I'd end up even worse—midway both physically and mentally—because that's the type of image everyone pushed at me. It is incredible that I finally was able to understand it wouldn't have to be like that.

And yet... a clueless friend a few days tried to convince me that I should be happy right where I was, and not change a thing. He suggested I watch Pink Flamingoes, as it would show me how cool it was to be openly different...

It made me almost vomit. That movie is the very epitome of what made me afraid to even try to escape.
I only ever wanted to be just like my sisters. Standard. Normal.
A woman.

And the fact that he assured me he'd continue to try to dissuade me from getting surgery until I'd actually have it made all the nightmares I'd ever had since a child rise from the dead. Why do people do that? I did let him hug me in the end, but was in despair.

His wife called me later to apologize, and told me I should keep away from him—because he wouldn't ever understand or change.
It's hard enough to throw away everything one has in order to be able to reach for the possibility of happiness without allies and supporters like that.

Again, I've lived all my life in an in-between limbo. My absolute need is to escape from the not-quite-either category I thought I was doomed to occupy forever, become just another woman in the crowd, and enjoy everything that life in the body I should have been born in can offer... and I believe you and the many others whose writings from ages ago I've seen are living proof that can indeed be possible.

I hope that others with the same fears as mine may realize that too, and find courage to do what they need to.

[Complete]

Actually, I do NOT agree with your continued conflation as exemplified here....
"You are correct, male and female are two end points of a gender/sex spectrum in our current world."
 
What world is that? The "trans" world? The cyber world?
Maybe some grad school? Not my world. Sex is what is between my legs. Gender is how that is interpreted/represented

"You and I have reached the female endpoint for quite a while (I still need GRS, which I originally had not planned for, until dysphoria hit me again)."

So in your mind, you have reached "womanhood" despite your male genitalia to the same degree as l have? Really? Wow! I am impressed.

'I live as a cis woman for quite a while now, and you live as such way longer already."

Yes, about 50 years longer. A lifetime, really.

" But we cannot forget about the path we had to take to get to the point of female we are at."

Perhaps you cannot let go, but l did decades ago.

You continue your attempts to equate your condition with mine. Why? I see little commonality.

[Complete]

Hi Complete,

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're saying there are only two genders in this world."

Ok. You're wrong. That is clearly NOT what I am saying. Nice try ☹️

"People are either male or they're female. Is that what you're saying?"

Yes😀 Or a very, very tiny fraction of a percentage are intersex.

 If that's what you're saying then it would stand to reason that you believe that a trans woman who, for whatever reason, can't have gender confirmation surgery isn't a real woman...(or a trans man who can't have surgery isn't a real man.) Is that really what you're saying?

"If it is I don't know if you're aware or not but there are all kinds of people under the transgender umbrella, and transsexuals are included in that."

Included against our will by those who do not speak for us but have stolen and misappropriated our life stories

"Transgender simply means that someone doesn't identify with their assigned birth gender. For instance if someone is born biologically male, but feels like they're really a female, so they take the steps to go through a 100% transition to female, then they're still transgender no matter what. They may remain stealth for the rest of their lives, they may never tell another living soul, but by definition they'll always be transgender"

That is your definition which l do not subscribe to. If you are included in a group against your will is that who you are, whether you agree or not?


"But it's cool if they don't claim that recognition, there's no law that says they have to, and it's no one else's business whether they do or not.

You said that "classic transsexuals are so universally banned, disbaraged and abused as elitists, bigoted transphobic haters." I don't believe that's true at all.

"I've known several women and one man who have made complete transitions and they're all very lovely people. They try to help the community as best they can, instead of trying to hurt it. I think the only ones who get called bigots are the ones who run down trans people, and say that trans women aren't real women, and trans men aren't real men. "

Why do you think I am "running you down" just because l don't identify with your group? Is not wanting to be identified or forcefully included in your group "bigoted BS"?

Yeah people like that are rightfully called out all when they talk that bigoted BS. Luckily for me, since I hang out in trans forums so much, I've had very few interactions with someone like that though.

Lexxi

[Complete]

OK complete, let me try it again.  I was born as a female, with the XX Male Sex Reversal Syndrome.  This means, I am a genetic female, with the birth defect of male genitalia.  In the days I was born that made me automatically male.  I also have hypogonadism, which means, my body did not produce testosterone, in spite of a semi funktional testicle (the other did not develop, but turned into an ovary).  My body never developed into a male body, but into a female one (I never got any secondary male sex characteristics, no Adams Apple, no deep voice and no receding hair line, etc).  I was female from the day of my birth, but just did not have a corrective surgery, because this was not know in those days. If you feel that my genitalia makes me less female than you are, is in some way disturbing for me, cause I have many of the female parts inside my bod, and I have boobs that grew without any need for external hormones.
So for you doubting my femininity, is the same as if I would call you a male who just looks like a female, because your biology is certainly less female than mine! If you feel different, I am impressed about this that the fact you found a surgeon who was able to do some creative cutting made you female, while I, a mostly biological female can't call myself one, because I have not visited this surgeon, yet!  Does living for 50 years as a woman (or as a man who had genital surgery???) makes you a better woman than I am who was born one, albeit with a birth defect???  So, what makes you to be a woman, and what makes me not to be one, the little bit of skin between my leg that has not been modified yet, or my entire body with the appropriate female chromosomes.  I was diagnosed a few years ago that I have the genetic structure of a post menopausal woman, how about you, are you post menopausal man?
As I said earlier, I did not have to do a lot to change from male to female, I had my boobs, I had my full head of hair (with a female hairline), I had no body hair, no Adams Apple and did not have to do much to my voice.  The most drastic change I had to do was buying female clothing items and get my name an gender changed.  Can I let go of this rather easy path, you bet, I hardly can remember some stuff of it, and I am glad that I went that path instead of trying to continue to play a man!

I think we may indeed have not much commonality, because you were a biological man, who underwent some external cosmetic surgery to look like a woman, while I always was a biological woman who did not get a full set of cosmetic surgery, but I am still a woman, nothing can change this, because that is my genetics, and I am a darn happy woman.  No, I am not married, because I am not hetero, and have no plans to get married.

Now to go back to what I wanted to ask you, you and I we both have a vast experience in changing from a male presentation to a female life, and we both could help other trans women, who are still on their path to womanhood, to make this path a little easier with advises and hints we learned over the years of our lives.

If you don't feel that you could be of value, to tose people, it is your thing, i will continue to try to help!

Hugs
Linde

Well, l am certainly relieved that you have not got your panties all in a twist. I am further gratified that you can now acknowledge our significant differences.
You had the misfortune of being born with a significant sexual disorder, (IS), a clearly recognizable condition, of ambiguous genitalia. For reasons unbeknownst to me, you were assigned male at birth despite that obvious(?) ambiguity.
I on the other hand was born with perfectly formed and functional genitalia and a well functioning endocrine system. My disconnect/disorder occurred in my brain.
The easiest fix for me was to reconfigure the sexual characteristics of my body as reconfiguring the brain was and still is beyond the current state of medical science.
I am happy you have finally found your way to happiness despite your challenges.

[Kiera]

Included against our will by those who do not speak for us but have stolen and misappropriated our life stories . . That is your definition which l do not subscribe to. If you are included in a group against your will is that who you are, whether you agree or not?

      OMG We've gone from "too much quoting" to "none at all" lol what the 'ell happened here last night, who said what, and what is the term "<not allowed>"?

      Complete is correct -> it's called mob shouted down and effectively SILENCED! While many of us were "on our own" back then in just as many ways feel it's exactly the same today BUT that is now something WE need again to get over in wanting to voluntarily "disassociate".

These days what's really the point of "debate"
when one can so easily be "erased"?
("Child of vision, won't you listen, find yourself a new ambition")

[Complete]

You continue to insist that your world is the world the vast majority experience, while trying to minimize the experience of those who don't share that view. The world you describe bears almost no resemblance to the world I experience. The world is a vast and varied place with very different reactions in different areas and even more different reactions in different times. These experiences are all real and valid and should not be minimized.

From what I see, what's between one's legs has almost nothing to do with social gender as in my case the only person who's seen that in the last 15 years is my partner. Almost everything about social gender interpretation and representation is in secondary sexual characteristics that people can see on a daily basis. It is perfectly possible for someone to partially transition and function in the world as their represented gender. Obviously, this varies by location and culture - in a culture like Zirconia's with public baths as a common and important thing a mix of primary and secondary sexual characteristics becomes a huge barrier to participation in society.

There is also no reason whatsoever to assume that the neurological basis that leads to being transexual leads everyone to feel most comfortable in a sexually binary body. The specific nature of the neural structures is nowhere nearly well enough understood to determine each structures role in creating dysphoria, but the fact that there appear to be multiple areas and those areas each have a range of size and structure makes it almost impossible to think that they will always lead to a binary state for one's physical form as being the ultimate goal for everyone. So on that basis, partial transition may indeed be the ideal for some people, maybe a necessary and acceptable compromise for others, and may be a state of misery for yet others dependent on their biology and environment. Just as we have the technology to allow one to transition nearly completely from one physical sex to the other we can mix and match sexual characteristics to achieve one's ideal state and I see no reason not to take advantage of that. There is no more need for sex to be binary than there is for it to be locked in at birth.

As far as terminology goes, I don't see how the existence of an umbrella term forces someone to incorporate it into their identity or steals life stories. You can exist and express as a cis-woman and no-one is going to force you to identify as or express yourself as transgender (with the possible exception of a medical professional who needs to understand that history for medical reasons)

Thank you for sharing such a well elucidated example of the point l made in my initial post.😄

You are absolutely correct when you assert that
what's between one's legs has almost nothing to do with social gender

And...you are absolutely wrong when you assert that "There is no more need for sex to be binary than there is for it to be locked in at birth."
Sex, male/female is by definition, binary.

As you so eloquently point out, our world is highly varied. The fact that you live in a particularly liberal, progressive, insanely delusional environment, does not mandate that the rest of us do, or God forbid, would want to.
But hey, if it ruffles your skirts, that's awesome 😀😀😀😀😵😵

[Kirsteneklund7]

 Just enjoying reading this thread ! and so good to see Complete here !. On another site where discussions of this kind were not allowed I was banned and just found out Complete was as well.

 I find it refreshing and reassuring everybody here can have a good old CHAT HERE without trench-coats and boots getting involved!

 Kirsten X.

[Megan]

Wow, it's like Mos Eisley here!

Riddle me this everyone. If transgender people are born that way, but by far the greater percentage of transgender people begin by cross dressing, then by definition those cross dressers were also transgender, and so belong under that UMBRELLA term.

I suggest that if any transgender person feels threatened by cross dressing, then a long look in the mirror is required before spewing hate about others.

Hugs. X

[zirconia]

Hi, everyone...

People are either male or they're female. Is that what you're saying? If that's what you're saying then it would stand to reason that you believe that a trans woman who, for whatever reason, can't have gender confirmation surgery isn't a real woman...(or a trans man who can't have surgery isn't a real man.)

This is confusing for me. Absolutely everyone I know belongs to either the boy or the girl group. I needed to be in the girl group, but everyone put me in the boy group. My body was male. I needed it to be female.

So... my body I guess is my sex, right? And what people see me as is my gender... is this correct? And what what I feel about myself?
My brain treats the whole thing as a strange convoluted mess that it eventually gives up on.

But... while strangers do treat me like a girl I can't go bathing with them. If I do go bathe then it's with men. Until that changes I am a man. That's my sex now.

Thus, to me personally transitioning means changing my sex. Nothing else. Yes, I can wear clothes meant for women, because I'm shaped to fit them. But I can't please someone male or be pleased by him like my sisters. Until my body is fixed I can't be a woman. Once it is, I will be.

Actually—yes. My sisters. I've always needed to be like them. They're women. That's always been and will be my standard and definition...

Complete, it might be helpful for you to explain what group or description you identify with. I think I understand you to identify as cisgender due to your having had the anatomical and medical corrections needed to live as a cisgender woman. In other words, because cis is a prefix that means within, every part of your being has been fully within a female identity (internally and externally) for over 50 years.

This is another thing that has brought me grief. Until the "cis" was brought into play women were just women. The purpose of "cis" as I understand it is to designate people who have never had any discomfort whatever about their sex/gender/word de jour. It only acts as a reinforced concrete wall as thick and tall as Mt. Everest between them and transsexuals. Without it I and everyone in my position can be a woman. With it I never can belong.

What else can it accomplish other than to create further division and bring despair?

Sure, a discussion on transsexualism is not going to be of much relevance to a crossdresser, but the thread mentioned was supposed to be about transgender. I don't know what a crossdresser will get out of a transgender thread, but que sara sara.

Someone I met belongs to a crossdresser group that includes people who have had all kinds of surgeries. One has had many progressive breast augmentations, in order to stretch the tissues and reach the desired size (H I think). And several rounds of facial feminization. As I was given to understand, all for fulfilling a sexual fantasy.

Is that person transsexual, or a crossdresser? Transgender certainly, by both the current definition as I understand it and the original one.

I really don't know how to express this right, but I do believe that unless one undergoes surgeries in order to actually be a woman, they won't make one female. Or transsexual.

I can identify with Lexxi's comment about being held against our will. I feel as though I was held hostage in a cis male identity by people who had a vested interest in forcing me to conform to such and identity with the ransom of death or a ruined life if I dared try to escape the identity.

And, as Zirconia mentioned, I do not want to be stuck somewhere in between forever. I don't identify with the crowd who feels that you should just be whatever you feel like and this is all some kind of gender expression game. This is real life and I am female. I have no desire to be a feminine man or something like that.

Katie, unless I'm mistaken the comment was by Complete...
According to some research I did for another thread somewhere far far away, transgender by fiat includes groups that have nothing whatsoever to gain from the political pressure it was designed to exert as an umbrella group.  I don't think e.g. Albanian sworn virgins benefit in any way from being included. While it may affect the way people look at them, I don't think it necessarily does so in a positive way. And I believe Complete probably wanted to indicate this also in regard to transsexuals.

Once I'm done with transition I want to leave it all behind as best I can. And as long as the transgender label is forced on me for life this becomes more difficult. Unfortunately, while absolutely all my records will be automatically changed to female they will now forever include an unpublicized footnote visible to officials that indicates the fact. The transgender movement became so big that the government decided to mandate it by law to ensure I'll be "protected."

You continue to insist that your world is the world the vast majority experience, while trying to minimize the experience of those who don't share that view. The world you describe bears almost no resemblance to the world I experience. The world is a vast and varied place with very different reactions in different areas and even more different reactions in different times. These experiences are all real and valid and should not be minimized.

From what I see, what's between one's legs has almost nothing to do with social gender as in my case the only person who's seen that in the last 15 years is my partner. Almost everything about social gender interpretation and representation is in secondary sexual characteristics that people can see on a daily basis. It is perfectly possible for someone to partially transition and function in the world as their represented gender. Obviously, this varies by location and culture - in a culture like Zirconia's with public baths as a common and important thing a mix of primary and secondary sexual characteristics becomes a huge barrier to participation in society.

Hi Lucy
I see we're back on the simple versus complex subject (^_−)−☆

You're absolutely correct in that what's between my legs has a lot to do with my social gender... in each culture I belong to. And, to be quite honest, I believe it would in yours as well if I wished to live and love there as a woman.

At least for me the existence of a penis would make that impossible even if I lived in a super prudish environment where the only one who gets to see one naked is a doctor. I'd feel I was play-acting every moment of my life. Even if I were to find a man who thought i was a woman while making love to me in absolute darkness...

And yes, there are variations. I'm sure there are a lot of them. The thing is, I believe the ones that lead to behavior and feelings like mine are anomalies, though, rather than the norm. I certainly feel I am an anomaly. To me there's nothing normal about being what I am.

My sisters are normal. My mother and aunts are normal.
And that's what I need to be...

[zirconia]

Hi Linde

You're intersex, which means we're not in the same position biologically.
However, if you truly need to be female and feel that your body is wrong you're in a similar position as I am at least emotionally.

The main questions in my world are, will female strangers feel comfortable sharing a bath with you stark naked? Would they accept you as a woman, or see you as a man? How about men? Which would they ultimately perceive you as? How about a man who wishes to make love to you?

In my case:
a) If I can socialize with strangers and be seen as a woman when naked, and can make love with a man who's in love with me, to them I am a woman.
b) To feel I am a woman I need the above to be true.

In my world only part a) applies to you. Part b) is overridden by the fact that you're intersex.

If a) is not fulfilled, the next question as I see it would be what you want to change. Should you wish to possess male genitals I don't think you're the same as my sisters—who are women. They'd want to fix the situation immediately with as little fanfare as possible.

While I do respect anyone who feels differently, I cannot truly from my heart say that once made whole I'd feel comfortable sharing a women's bath with a stranger who has a penis. To me anyone like that would belong to the male category. In my world only men are happy to have and use male genitals—so if that was what you wanted I'd have to categorize you as male.

You know, I hoped I was intersex because it would have brought me slightly closer to being a girl. When the doctor ordered chromosome tests due to my off the wall hormone levels I almost shook with anticipation. I cried for hours when they came back saying "Normal, 46XY."  Ultimately, however, my body would have required the same treatment even if I had been XXY, XXXY or even XX.

To me I can't be a woman unless I can at least love a man like any normal woman can.

As for cis... I personally believe that word is a red herring and only harmful. And that only those who cannot hope or believe they can ever be just women would want to transform the entirety of womanhood into a subcategory for the sole purpose of demoting it to the same level as the category they've created for themselves.

I hope no-one here is like that... (*⁰▿⁰*)

Edit: Dropped words, etc.

[zirconia]

Allie,

I can hear your pain. Compromises hurt.
I hope you will find your way.

And yes. It is good to live without labels. They only can distort vision.

It's when others create them that things really start to go wrong.
Like my friend and Pink Flamingoes... He didn't mean to be hurtful. It's just what he was spoon-fed so it's what he believes is best for me.

I wish you all the happiness and normalcy you can find in your life.