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Analysis of the Consternation and Distress thread

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zirconia:
The way the Consternation and Distress thread has turned out really bothers me. Enough to spend some hours analyzing the conversation. Now, this is long, and I obviously can't be in the brains of everyone who participated. But I tried to follow it, keeping in mind what the subject matter presented in the original post was. From the viewpoint of the original poster.

Again, I can't spare the time to make this as easy to follow as I'd have liked to.

But... if you're a moderator or an administrator and you can, please, please take time to read it through, and think with me. As someone still on my way I feel what I saw happen to be very important. For the sake of everyone who faces anything similar.



The whole thing started when Complete was told by someone—probably an administrator—that her views in regard to the difference between transsexual and transgender were causing consternation and distress.

That this distinction is important to Complete is obvious. She feels she was transsexual, but the treatment enabled her to become just a woman and to live her life as just a woman. And that she is not transgender.

She states in the original post that she will not change her opinion of what she is, and that she feels under threat by what she was told. That she hopes the site will accommodate her view of herself instead of banning her or forcing her to leave.


Zirconia and Kirsteneklund asked her to stay, and state they find her words beneficial.

Linde said this discussion should be continued in the newly created secluded area.

Complete felt this amounted to telling her to shut up.

MadameDuFromage felt Complete just merely wanted attention, or she would go to the secluded area as Linde suggested.

Lady Sarah said Complete's view that she is not transgender amounts to demanding that everyone accept her view. And that Complete saying that she's not transgender frustrates and distracts Lady Sarah.

Linde said that anything that causes distress to others will be moved into the secluded area.

Michelle said she'd like to see discussion of whether Complete is transgender or not moved into the secluded area.

Complete said she doesn't ask anyone to agree she's a woman and not transgender. Only that she may say it.

Complete takes umbrage at Michelle's words, and suggests that Michelle finds her opinion that she's just a normal woman threatening. Also pointing out that the identity Michelle herself professes does not look very normal.

Complete adds that if Michelle finds her normal womanhood a threat, there is another site where Complete has been banned where the threat is not present.

Michelle explains to Complete that her somewhat out of the ordinary looking identity doesn't mean she feels she is better than anyone else and offers a link that contains descriptions of a large variety of identities.

Linde says that Complete can talk about whether she is just a normal woman or not in the secluded area and adds that if she does wish to talk about it elsewhere the discussion may be moved there.

She states the moderators will not allow new trans people to be hurt by Complete's view that she is a woman and not transgender, and hopes that she will only speak about it away from the public view.

Zirconia comments that hearing something like Complete's position would have helped her look for help earlier. And that allowing such views might also help others like Zirconia.

Katie is not sure which side to endorse. And brings up an article by someone else that Complete had earlier linked to. Katie also wonders what about Complete's view of herself as just a woman is so unsettling to everyone, and suggests that it's sometimes just OK to agree to disagree.

Complete comments to Katie that she also didn't agree with everything in the link she provided, but that she found it a telling and mostly accurate account of post transition life for later in life transitioners who wish to attain the status of just a woman. She also mentions her motivation for linking it as a juxtaposition for overblown fairy tale optimism and wishful thinking.

Linde describes how easy it was for her to transition because she is intersex. And that one of her friends also had no problems. That what Complete says is outdated, and that things now are unlike the horror story Complete experienced thirty or forty years ago.

Linde says she feels Complete thinks that Linde's world is a fairy tale.
And that other than finding it easier than others to change her appearance, Linde has experienced everything any transgender person would.

Michelle changes the subject to gender non-conforming people, and states that every way to transition is correct. She tells she's asked to discuss matters with all kinds of people, and avoids assigning "identities" to others even if she feels what they say is silly.
Then she describes her own identity and history.

Allie says that some opinions are hurtful and that offering a juxtaposition to fairytale optimism can be found offensive. She suggests that after a position has been stated, the decision whether it's convincing enough should be left to the other party. She says Complete shouldn't denigrate people for thinking Complete is transgender, and others shouldn't denigrate Complete for feeling she is not.

Allie says that to succeed a forum needs diversity, and due to the tone people have taken in regard to what Complete has offered some members have left, and others have failed to join. She suggests that to avoid such altercations Complete's views on whether she is transgender or not might be best moved to the secluded area. Allie suggests that to avoid this discussion should keep civil.

Iztaccihuatl agrees with Allie.

Complete tells Linde that her transition was not a horror story.

Complete tells Allie she's not denigrating anyone, but if someone takes offense from her view that she is not transgender she can't help it. Complete compares people like that to snowflakes.

Allie says Complete claims others to live in fairy tales. And that this is denigrating.
Allie emphasizes that if Complete would just only state her case and leave it at that she'd be an asset, but because her words are so hurtful the administrators created a secluded space for her so she can at least stay. Out of respect for her intelligence and experience.

Linde says that she did not mean Complete's transition was a horror story. And says that wishful thinking still only applies if Complete's own transition was a horror story compared to what transition is like today. And repeats that the stories of those transitioners Linde knows personally are positive.

Iztaccihuatl feels that speech on the forum should be proscribed by the delicate emotionality of tender people. At least in the sense that opinions should be voiced courteously. And that only politically correct terminology should be used.

Complete states that while everyone on the forum is free to think of and call her or others anything they like, she herself is just as free to disagree. And that she feels those opinions are based on gender dogma. And that people outside transgender circles also don't agree with that dogma.

Complete calls out Allie for mischaracterizing her words..

Allie says that unlike everyone else, Complete is not free to call anyone what Complete wants. And that it is because Complete does so that she is in constant trouble. Allie says Complete must respect others' belief that she is transgender, or she'll be excluded from public spaces.

Complete states that she does not call others names, but that others are making veiled insults at Complete.

Zirconia asks what it is about Complete's feelings about her normalcy that is so unsettling. And whether views like that must always be met with hostility.

Complete says that the hostility is caused by people being afraid of admitting and envious of her not being transgender.

Lady Sarah claims the word snowflakes to be denigration and indicative of Complete's ideology. And that the word snowflake explains why Complete disrupts every discussion Complete doesn't like.

Linde doesn't understand why anyone would be envious of Complete being just a woman. Or why they'd find the reality of Complete not being transgender unpleasant. She says that the administrators make all decisions, hoping to help those who want to become women.
Linde says that there is a possibility that new transitioners may never have to experience unpleasantness, so there's no use scaring them with constructed (imaginary) reality.

Complete loses her temper at Lady Sarah.

Complete feels Linde is veering off the subject. Complete states her reality is not constructed. That she has a happy life as a normal woman. And that for most transitioners becoming just a woman is not easy.

Zirconia repeats her question why Complete's view of herself as just a normal woman causes such emotional turmoil. And why people find it so threatening.

Allie says she hopes no-one sees her as hostile. But that she does want to also represent everyone who doesn't want to discuss whether Complete is transgender or just a woman.

Allie and Lady Sarah comment on Zirconia's last comment, but don't address the questions directly, Allie instead concentrates on the way the subject matter is presented and Lady Sarah claims that Complete is attacking people continuously and on several threads, apparently trying to derail the entire forum.



So... now... after reading this epic novel...

I'd like to once again ask.

What happened?
Why do people find Complete's claim that she is not transgender so upsetting?
When she defends her position, why does the thread heat up so?

Please help me out with this.

zirconia:
Allie,

Why did I... yes... I guess I do owe the participants in that thread an explanation.


I started the summary of the thread wishing to confirm to myself whether Complete actually initiated attacks on or denigrated anyone within the thread as claimed. And I couldn't find evidence that she did. And yes, what I wrote did end up tilted. And the more times I read the thread through and the more I boiled it down the more tilted it ended up...


While some were sharp, on repeated readings I did come to very well understand where every one of her comments came from. Should you wish to check for yourself, her most acerbic remarks were aimed at mischaracterization of her words. You yourself mischaracterized them more than once. And even in her replies to those comments of yours Complete didn't call you names. Even once.

The closest thing to that I could find was her comment on Michelle's stated identity. And quite honestly, I was flabbergasted when Michelle explained that she meant it in earnest. Until then I thought she'd made it up as a joke, and that she had a pretty interesting sense of over the top humor.


If you will, please reread the original post. What is the subject? The core of the message? Now remember how she transitioned, and how long ago. Might it not be that to her, the denial of of what she is and has experienced is somewhat akin to someone who hasn't walked in your shoes telling you that what you say about what you feel and have gone through is offensive and wrong...?

And yes—to me it does seem she mostly kept her focus on that original post throughout the thread even while occasionally accommodating offshoots. Although many other perhaps didn't catch it...


Where the numerous votes to remove her to somewhere secluded are considered, I frankly don't think anyone would find them personally appealing. I certainly wouldn't. And of course I'm particularly biased in that for me her message is exactly what I needed when in absolute despair. I tried to lock everything up for years because what everyone offered me looked, felt and tasted like poison. To rot and die together with that desolate seed and hopeless desperate need seemed a kinder fate than to let it sprout into the monstrous flower I feared. Instead of the glorious graceful orchid I needed for it to be in order to truly come alive.

I could cry right now if I would let myself, thinking of how different things might have been had I known her and heard her words when I was three. Or eleven. Or sixteen. Or twenty-three. Or any time before now. Every second not wasted would have been more precious than gold.


But even without that personal bias I would find the suggestions very unpalatable. I was amazed when the United States implemented "free speech zones." While they may by now be an accepted and lauded part of the country's tradition, to me they seemed a very transparent ploy to maintain an iron grip on whatever story the government wished to present. To me it sounds like lip service to freedom and a harbinger of worse things to come.

Not to even mention that quite honestly I found the way you worded the solution utterly and despicably disrespectful. Pray—Allie—is it really the custom in your culture to place your wise and experienced elders in isolation? As captives held away from the public eye? So the young children can't be scared or hurt by the ancient wisdom that conflicts with what they're told in schools? So they won't be poisoned by knowledge born of what neither you nor their teachers have seen and perhaps never will?

And finally, for the sake of full disclosure, while I'm pretty sure it was a glitch, my own experience with that secret room didn't add to its attraction any. When my membership status was changed to "Controversial subjects" or some such I found myself unable to post, search, or do anything at all... I felt bound, gagged and stowed away. I almost wished to deregister my account, but couldn't even do that.


To tell the truth, I did hesitate and consider whether or not to post what I wrote. In fact I deleted it once after I'd done so. The logs should show it, if you're interested. I didn't think anyone would care, and felt that even if someone would read it that would make no difference. In the end I decided I might just as well. I still may delete it, or at least do what I can to erase it, depending on the feedback. In any case I guess I have 24 hours to think about it.

I'll at least give it perhaps until tomorrow around this time. In the hope that something in it may just perhaps be of some use to someone.

MadameDuFromage:
I still stand by my comment.

Incessant drama starting antics are akin to a child plugging their ears and repeating "it's not so!" when told the meaning of a word that they don't like the meaning of.  It's not distressing, it's annoying.  It's not far from throwing a fit because the color purple isn't called pink.


She can call herself whatever she wants but the transgender or transsexual label still applies to anyone who has gone through transition (and even to many who can't or won't for whatever reason.)  Bickering about it and causing drama on a forum won't change the category that one falls into. 

Complete:

--- Quote from: OzGirl on February 06, 2020, 04:25:29 AM ---Zirconia, your view of events is your view, and is tilted to support Complete. She is welcome to put her views up as anyone is, but we ask her to be respectful and allow others to make up their minds if they want to adopt those views or not. Nobody is offended by Complete's view that she is not transgender, but by her denigration of others views. Any time we ask her to be respectful, she gets offended.

While I appreciate the work you did summarising this thread in your view, I wonder why?

Allie

--- End quote ---

As is to be expected, considering your clearly stated  position, Allie, your response is highly biased.
Let me respectfully point out the why and how.
THIS statement: "Zirconia, your view of events is your view, and is tilted to support Complete."

Nowhere is there anything mentioning, "support".

Zirconia's analysis of Complete's thread is coldly factual and completely devoid of any of the bias you so insidiously insert into your constant mischaracterizations of my posts.
On the other hand, your intent to smear the messenger is beyond obvious.
In contrast, to your constant, and highly tiresome misrepresentations, Zirconia's post is highly accurate and free from your malintentioned inferences concerning the actual meaning of my words.
And finally your questioning of Zirconia's motivation in posting this analysis is just one more indication of your obvious bias and intent to shut down this conversation and protect the "approved" transgemder narrative.

MadameDuFromage:

--- Quote from: Complete on February 06, 2020, 09:53:46 AM ---As is to be expected, considering your clearly stated  position, Allie, your response is highly biased.
Let me respectfully point out the why and how.
THIS statement: "Zirconia, your view of events is your view, and is tilted to support Complete."

Nowhere is there anything mentioning, "support".

Zirconia's analysis of Complete's thread is coldly factual and completely devoid of any of the bias you so insidiously insert into your constant mischaracterizations of my posts.
On the other hand, your intent to smear the messenger is beyond obvious.
In contrast, to your constant, and highly tiresome misrepresentations, Zirconia's post is highly accurate and free from your malintentioned inferences concerning the actual meaning of my words.
And finally your questioning of Zirconia's motivation in posting this analysis is just one more indication of your obvious bias and intent to shut down this conversation and protect the "approved" transgemder narrative.

--- End quote ---

Thank you for proving Allie's point about denigration of differing views...


There is no grand conspiracy here.  Your unrelenting hijacking of threads simply to try and jump on a soapbox about why you don't like the words used to describe you (and everyone else like you, which includes me) is the reason the controversial area got created.  It's not some politically motivated maneuver to stifle conservative viewpoints, but rather to move annoying hijacking topics to an area that is less disruptive to those of us who actually try to stay on topic.

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