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Zirconia's very fleeting return to transrefuge \\٩( 'ω' )و // ❣️❣️

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zirconia:
What follows is a copy of a post I made at transrefuge.org.
I hope it will not be my last there... I bear no ill will toward those who live there, and one or two have told me they found something I said helpful.
And so I post this here only as surety. It is heartfelt, and I've known such works to suddenly disappear elsewhere... and it makes me sad when that happens.

---

I hope from my heart this post won't be censored by the transrefuge.org administrators or moderators...

If you can read it, I guess they at least partially meant what they said about this being a place where different understandings and feelings can be discussed freely. And that the only thing that would attract the attention of the moderators or admins here is hurting people deliberately and remorselessly, and mentioning the name of the site this one was meant to be a refuge from.

And... hopefully also that I'll remain welcome even if I do openly tell of my views and feelings.

If not... and this message is removed or modified, I guess that will indicate something different... Although of course in the latter case no-one but I and the person who edits or deletes it will know... unless of course I post it elsewhere... because after all the site rules do state this site's right to publish what I say here is non-exclusive.


First, I do want to be clear that this is just my impression, based on my conversations with three transrefuge.org administrators and some other members on this site. Some background information was given to me through human error, and although I retain copies of even those conversations I will keep my promise to not divulge the details. Only my own deductions and interpretations.

Complete has also told me her side of the story... with quotes from her own conversations... and those also corroborate and match everything else I've heard.

But—I'm as fallible as any other human. So I ask you to just listen, look at what everyone here and elsewhere says, and hopefully arrive at your own impartial conclusions.



Dena was from very early on concerned with how the moderators here handled feelings and opinions that differed from the common trans narrative.

Her perspective is very different than most of us here—because she has after her surgery experienced decades living as just another woman within society. As has Complete.


No-one merely on hormones can know the normalcy possible after decades of being—just simply—a woman. The life of someone like that is completely different from anyone who as of yet only dreams of "passing" some day, and getting accepted by family, friends and workplace.

No-one who's had zero depth surgery can understand the completeness of being able fall in love and experience being made love to by a man.

No-one who wishes to retain everything gained and achieved as a man can understand the need that drives others to give up absolutely everything in order to completely disappear into society as just another anonymous female.

I myself only know this is what I need. Absolute existence as just another woman. But I also cannot yet understand what it's like, any more than anyone else here who has not lived as such.

And perhaps there are some here who never will—nor even wish to. Because we do have different needs...
But... let me return to the subject.


Unlike the other administrators and moderators, Dena did and does understand Complete's views and feelings. Just as she understood those of other members. And she was concerned by the lack of skills and understanding of the site staff.

The task and responsibility of the staff on any forum is to understand and guide conversation.

However, the staff at transrefuge failed to assist Compete to more clearly express the truly rare and precious view of someone who has achieved and lived a life the rest of us as of yet only dream of, and instead treated her as a demerit and a danger to the site.

They also dealt heavy-handedly with at least one other member, without full understanding of the situation. A trait perhaps inherited from somewhere else...


Dena's requests to train and help the staff increase their skills and understanding were not heard, and she was overridden... and eventually ostracized.

Ostracized because of her different perspective.
Ostracized because her experience is much more extensive than that of anyone else here.
Ostracized because those who are still on her way cannot understand the things she as post-op easily can and does
Ostracized perhaps because some other members cannot ever even wish to understand, let alone arrive where she and Complete have.


As I've understood it, it was Dena who built this site, spending hundreds upon hundreds of hours toiling alone without help or support, in the hope of making transrefuge a truly safe place for everyone. Her eventual decision to  open an alternative site was not an act of spite or malice, but of desperation—after she had tried for months to make it happen.

For those whose membership data at transrefuge has not been backed up on Dena's haven but still wish to know, here is Dena's own account of the events that led to the severance.

It is not my wish to create further strife so I will not write out the actual URL. If you wish to read it, please click the link in the previous paragraph.


As I wrote some weeks ago, I said goodbye to the transosphere because I need to focus my energy on achieving my own goal in the real world. However, I find the situation described here extremely painful. And while I have no intention of increasing strife by engaging in further public conversation about it here, since I've been told by someone that some of my words have helped her I will log on to check my private messages every now and then... provided of course that this message does not result in a ban.

And, depending on how matters develop, just perhaps even manage to post some small things close to my heart either here or elsewhere, as time permits...


P.S.
For those not experienced in website administration, making and keeping copies of databases is normal and desirable operating procedure. As is making and maintaining test systems. Anyone not doing so could only be described as incredibly inexperienced and/or irresponsible.

And... all work not done for hire is owned by whoever does it... meaning that despite any and all allegations of theft and piracy the transrefuge site as it has been and is as of this writing in its entirety the property of Dena. Which, if I'm not insanely mistaken, is the true reason for the upcoming migration to a new platform and design.

Dena is fully entitled to what is hers... She has let the transrefuge administrators use what she built out of respect for each one of you.... And has also pledged to honor your wishes on the new site where she has now migrated it to.

Your content is safe there if you wish to join her. It will be gone if you ask her to make it so.

I know many here have made this refuge their home and will prefer it to her haven. All Dena did was to offer a place for those who cannot feel safe here. Each one of us is different. I only hope we may all some day find true happiness. And friends and family with whom we can truly feel at peace.



P.P.S.
For those concerned about privacy, please always and everywhere remember:

1. Every post (outside the "controversial" area) on transrefuge is visible to every unregistered guest. As are all photographs displayed here or on any other site.

2. Should anyone wish to remove them after the 24 hour window after posting—whether here or on Dena's Haven—the only way is to ask the administrators to do so.

3. Any guest or member can also make copies of any thread he wishes at any time up until such removal.

4. Nothing openly published anywhere on the internet can thereafter ever be considered private.

zirconia:
So... I did continue this conversation with Allie and Katie. And was banned from transrefuge as I feared might happen.

I still feel no hostility toward the site, staff or the members... but do feel somewhat saddened.
It's brings sorrow when something one has created is destroyed... and I tend to spend inordinate amounts of time when writing. Unlike many I cannot do so very fast.

Luckily I did keep copies of my posts... so I guess I should probably add them here. Since they do give a picture of how I've felt...

I only hope they may also be of use to someone.

Kiera:

--- Quote from: zirconia on April 28, 2020, 09:50:59 PM ---What follows is a copy of a post I made at transrefuge.org.
--- End quote ---

       I CONGRATULATE you on that post zirconia it was very well written and reasonable and all I can really add is "ditto", also summed of "poor me" quite nicely! *sigh* Did I also mention that THAT THREAD is now also gone missing and, if wasn't for you, I would still have not even known that this site existed?

Enough of *fresh air* for now back to The Rabbit Hole I go ( and Dena, Christine and big THANK YOU! )

(ps: not to whine right "off the bat" but just two things:

* Can ya's PLZ change BIG BRIGHT RED BOX on yer ADMINISTRATOR title(s) (if not already) because it very much haunts/reminds me of "you-know-who" over there and . .
* oh, your two "registration challege" questions are IMPOSSIBLE to answer (before realizing same db well duh!)
(pss: I happened to copy the original thread before deleted (with one response) and left a link in yer Visitor Message area)

zirconia:
Hi, Kiera... thank you... yes. Once again, all of this strife does sadden me.

Yes... I'll add the posts I made here. Since I did write them hoping to express how I feel about what has happened—and those feelings have not changed. The quote code links obviously do not automatically fly us to where they should... but I've left them as is. Since the thread where they should link to seems to have itself disappeared from transrefuge I guess it doesn't matter that much, unless the administrators there decide to restore it. In which case I guess the copies here will become redundant in any case.

Anyway, Allie was the first to respond to my original post. Here is my reply to her...

---

Hi, Allie

Thank you for your reply. I believe you must have misunderstood some of my words, or I yours, so I feel obligated to ensure we do understand each other. And to commit to continuing this discourse until I am sure that all such misunderstandings have been resolved.


--- Quote from: OzGirl on April 28, 2020, 11:28:32 PM ---Please remember Dena was one of 4 administrators, and no doubt she put a lot of voluntary time into helping create this site, but so did the other Admins. Dena simply did not create this site on her own.
--- End quote ---

Thank you for correcting me.
What percentage of the code and design on which this site runs was written by Dena, and what percentage written by each of the other administrators?
And how many hours did each of the other administrators spend on coding the site when offline?


--- Quote from: OzGirl on April 28, 2020, 11:28:32 PM ---She didn't agree with some things that were being done and made her thoughts known, but was outvoted. It is within the accepted role of a site administrator to create a mirror site to test changes on, but it is not even legal for that data to be used to start another site. Worse still she has taken data from members and incorporated it on her new site, without their permission.
--- End quote ---

I've heard this accusation repeated several times, but never with a reference to the actual laws violated, nor how they apply to this situation.
Would you please point out the statutes and paragraphs that make Dena's use of her creation illegal?

Assuming of course that it is she who built this site. If, on the other hand, as you say, all other administrators did significantly contribute to writing the code and customizing the database with her, then the site obviously is not her creation. I look forward to your clarification on this point.


--- Quote from: OzGirl on April 28, 2020, 11:28:32 PM ---I personally thought our staff were far too lenient with Complete, but everything goes to a vote and she was kept on the forum long enough to upset some members enough to leave. A thread was even started by a member to ask mods to stop Complete from making hurtful posts. That was pretty extreme and told us that this one person threatened our site, so after many attempts to get Complete to be respectful, she was banned.
--- End quote ---

Hmmmm... did you truly read my analysis of one of these threads on which Complete was supposedly "making hurtful posts?" You did call my conclusions "tilted". However, as stated, they were as dispassionate and impartial as I could possibly make them—and showed the exact opposite to be the case.

At the time you did not offer any alternate interpretations that would have countered mine. If you truly do feel I was wrong, would you be so kind as to do so now?


You justify banning Complete by members leaving the boards and starting a thread asking moderators to stop her from making hurtful posts. I left the transosphere because I can no longer afford to spend my energy on defending my own views... but, that would not have been the case had I not been forced to do so. And that is so only because my views and feelings differ from those of the majority.

Were I to start a thread asking moderators to stop e.g. Linde from making the type of posts that finally triggered my decision, would she also be banned? Keeping in mind that I have received private communication from other members who have told me they've basically quit posting because of her comments on their posts?

I truly believe not. Because she does mostly adhere to the common narrative. It is always the farthest outliers that get ostracized. Despite any claims that different understandings and feelings can here be discussed freely.

And, to be clear, I would not wish to ban her. Because I do not feel in any way threatened by her often insensitive  and sometimes very hurtful remarks, as they do not quake my own perceptions or beliefs. Nor would I ask for you or Lexxi to be banned despite having felt I was under personal attack. Note—felt under personal attack. What one feels is not always necessarily so... which is why if I'd ever ask for moderator intervention, I would wish and expect the moderators to look at both sides of the issue at the very least as impartially as I tried to in the thread I mentioned above, and try to guide the conversation toward mutual understanding. I would not expect or wish them to just take my side in any matter.
 
I will not comment on Christine. I cannot—because I have not seen those posts. Nor have I seen all of the private communication—reports to administration, actually, because that was the only recourse left to her at the time—that resulted in Complete's ban. However, I will clearly state that the snippets I did see indicate the staff's incredible disrespect toward elders that would not be tolerated within the culture I grew up in. But—should anyone wish to hear Christine's side, she does also give her own account of the sequence of events at the link I posted earlier and I guess I should now post once again here.



--- Quote from: OzGirl on April 28, 2020, 11:28:32 PM ---I have nothing against Dena starting a new site, but she had no right to take data from this site, especially that of members. (I've seen the legal advice) If she opens her site with 'members' who have not given their permission to be on her site, she is misrepresenting each of those people as her members, which is a felony. She also had no right to to use the name of another trans forum already in existence, and the owner of that site is aware.
--- End quote ---

Again, this is easy to state. And the very word felony can be readily used to sully others' reputations. If the administrators actually will take her to court, I will understand your desire to not reveal your strategy. However, unless you do so I can only feel sorrow that you use words without backing them up with the actual statutes that you accuse her of breaking.

Doing so publicly where I live could in itself be construed as libel.


--- Quote from: OzGirl on April 28, 2020, 11:28:32 PM ---If, as is alleged she was the one with the most experience, we could expect this site to flounder without her, but it is actually flourishing.
--- End quote ---

Why so? Even totally inexperienced people can start successful sites.
The question is... to what purpose? And for whom?
A specific group?
Or for everyone searching for a path—even if our needs are out of the norm?


--- Quote from: OzGirl on April 28, 2020, 11:28:32 PM ---Our member base is reporting great satisfaction and is happy they are being consulted on the direction and improvements to the site.
--- End quote ---

I am glad for each one of you. You have found companionship and joy in each other. What Dena envisioned, however, was acceptance and understanding of true diversity. And that I unfortunately don't find in abundance on the site as a whole.


--- Quote from: OzGirl on April 28, 2020, 11:28:32 PM ---I wish you well in achieving your goals for transition, but cannot accept that anyone is lesser than those who you feel are complete.
--- End quote ---

The above line is actually what made me decide to reply to you instead of remaining silent.

First, I do thank you for wishing me well. I also hope from my heart you can attain the joy and peace every one of us is looking for.

That said, Allie—you seem to clearly imply that someone has said someone is "lesser" than Dena and Complete.
What do you mean by lesser? In what way?
Who said this? And when?
Please point me to the thread, the post and the author.

If you cannot, then the line above seems to me just a red herring and/or a straw man argument.
And to my best knowledge that is what it is.

I believe I could anticipate the only response I believe you can make and counter it preventively... but I may of course be wrong.
So I'll save both of us the possible embarrassment, await your response, and comment on your words at that point.


--- Quote from: OzGirl on April 28, 2020, 11:28:32 PM ---We are all on our different journeys, and have different goals, and each one is equally valid.
--- End quote ---

This is exactly what Complete also wished to say... but while the words themselves sound good, actual discussion these differences seems to invariably attract fear and anger. I truly wish it were not so. Because it was the uniformity of what was on offer that gave birth to the agony I myself have been forced to bear.


--- Quote from: OzGirl on April 28, 2020, 11:28:32 PM ---Please check in from time to time to see how this site is improving, you might notice we have transcended being a simple trans forum, but have evolved into a community, with our members actively giving real time support to other members. Many of our members are past being members, they are now friends who care deeply for each other, and I am so proud to be part of this.
--- End quote ---

Again, I am glad for those who have found in here the home, safety and comfort that they have looked for. Again, Dena's motivation for setting up Haven is to offer the same to those unable to do so.

And... again... she kept everyone's posts to ensure that they would be safe should anyone find a need to leave the refuge behind. Everyone is free to decide whether she wishes Dena to retain them or delete them. Please remember that had she not done so, this option would now be denied.

zirconia:
While I was still writing the above, Katie also responded. Here is my reply to her message...

---

And Katie,

Thank you also for your response... I only wish these would be in sequence... as they'd be easier to read.


--- Quote from: Katie on April 29, 2020, 03:29:43 AM ---@zirconia you have one side of the story, and it is exactly that. There was no effort made at all by Dena to work with the staff. She simply threatened me multiple times that if I didn't train the staff the way she desired, she would retaliate. She never attempted to have a working relationship with the staff, would disappear for weeks at a time, and then complain that she didn't like the staff or their decisions.
--- End quote ---

As stated, I have read everything available and formed my opinions conclusions based on an analysis of all the material made available to me. Some of which you also provided to me privately in error—and which did not make sense at the time. But I gave my word at the time to not divulge it.

Be that as it may, I am not interested in the war itself.

What I do find intriguing is why anyone would believe Dena nefarious or insane enough to found another site out of pure spite—despite knowing it would cause an all-out attack on her. Considering the way she has helped so many both here and elsewhere, I would say even logic alone dictates she did it for exactly the reason she  states—to provide a safe place for those who have no safe haven here or elsewhere.


--- Quote from: Katie on April 29, 2020, 03:29:43 AM ---As for your objections that people who haven't been able to fully transition with exact the same medical procedure that you have had not being valid in their experiences, I am sincerely disappointed that your view of people is so narrow.
--- End quote ---

Katie... you must be mistaking me for someone else. When have I ever made such claims? Again, as I asked Allie, I ask you also to point to the thread and post where I said something like that. I await your response, and will be glad to attempt to resolve any honest misunderstanding. Because I do sincerely hope that is what prompted your claim, and not an attempt to smear me also.


--- Quote from: Katie on April 29, 2020, 03:29:43 AM ---Lastly, we are not operating this site as a venue for war with data pirates. I have resisted the temptation to play the war games that Dena and Christine so desperately want to play. I have no interest in displaying any kind of "our side of the story" appeals to make people feel sorry for us. That is what they already attempted to do on our paid Tapatalk account, using our site name, to broadcast their "woe-is-me" story. Any further action to instigate trouble between the sites will result in your removal from this site.
--- End quote ---

I believe it is you who first accused Dena and Christine of being criminals... and that you are repeating that claim now. And faced with a similar accusation I believe I would also feel obligated to respond. But... be that as it may, I guess judging from your and Allie's words that you wish to leave it for courts to decide. I only hope everyone will be happy with the results.

I believe the rest of your post to be fruit of your anger, and do not wish to expand that anger by responding in detail.

So... once again, please let me just commend your efforts on behalf of those who feel at home here.

And to express my sorrow that your way of doing so means excluding those able to provide the most desperate seekers with the rare and precious information that just possibly may set them free.

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