Author Topic: Surprise Surprise  (Read 7008 times)

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Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Surprise Surprise
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2020, 11:04:27 PM »
Why is it incumbent upon me to explain why you have a problem?

Why is it that you always seem so hostile? I don't have a problem other than not understanding what yours is?

Quote
Perhaps you should explain how you see sex and gender as the same when they are clearly different.

In the context of this decision, if a "man" starts presenting stereotypically as a woman might because they feel they have the gender of the opposite sex and gets fired for it, wouldn’t the basis for that be due to their SEX not being female?

Quote
Nevertheless, since you seem intent on making this your line in the sand, consider this.
In many jurisdictions, including the U.K., and far too many liberal/"progressive" US states, a man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate (or equivalent in the US), and be a woman in the sight of the law.

Okay, so now the truth comes out as if it wasn’t already clear. You just hate transgender people that don’t pass your muster and blame the problem of their existence on “liberal/progressives”. It’s hard to tell which you find most detestable – tranners or libtards? I can go to Mumsnet, 4thwavenow, peaktrans, transgendertrend or any gender critical (TERF) or conservative fundamentalist site if I want to read this paranoid bullshit.

I’m no transgender apologist and have been called a tribalistic elitist and a separatist myself but you take the cake when it comes to those that don’t live up to your standards or meet your criteria. Obviously, you don’t want your little rarefied fiefdom invaded by those you don’t consider “real deal” transsexuals” because you’re so much better than them. This superiority is exactly how you come across. It’s unbecoming.

Consider: I have taken hormones for over 48 years, have lived and worked exclusively as a female since I was 18 and have had major surgeries and other procedures to make my body as outwardly physically female as much as medically possible but the state I was born in still considers me to be male based on the conditions of my birth and nothing I have done or my experience in life will make them reconsider my legal status. Should I have to reveal to an employer that my birth certificate lists me as male, do you think it would be fair for someone like me to be fired or not hired because of it? Isn’t it clear that whether that’s a matter of sex or gender, it’s still discriminatory?

Face it sweetie, all of us are of the male sex and you’re no better than the rest of us but it certainly seems you would like us all to believe somehow you are? Your thinly disguised contempt and sarcasm for those outside your vision of what real womanhood is or those that don’t live up to your expectations is plainly evident in practically everything you post and it’s pretty tiring.

Consider: If I was to get all uppity, exclusionary and go full truscum transbaby, what if I was to say that those not outwardly expressing cross-gender identification as children that didn’t transition as teenagers aren’t good enough or like me, you yourself would fall outside of my criteria and I doubt you would like that very much? Every single one of you has been and lived as a man and I have not but if I didn’t have a modicum of respect and understanding that you seem to be lacking for those with different experiences, I’d probably be as unhappy and angry as you are?

Consider: Ireland, Malta, Norway, Argentina, Portugal, India and Belgium already allow change of legal gender by statutory declaration.

If it matters, I’m not in favor of ‘self-ID” based on say so without a medical diagnosis or mental health screening which in itself is pretty worthless because they more or less can be bought but at least it provides a minimal filter to wade out the crazies and trenders that you seem to despise so much.

Offline Kiera

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Re: Surprise Surprise
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2020, 04:30:08 AM »
WOW! Methinks common sense will perhaps prevail here one day but couldn't one say that "sex" implies "gender" yet not necessarily "the other way around"?

      I have met and know some performing NYC transvestites that put natal appearing women (read "ordinary") to shame but cannot imagine what they'd 'ave to do if needing, as such, to get ready for work every day . . .

lol Perhaps they'll even have new questions on employment applications:
"Are you, or do you ever intend to be, a transsexual?"
"If so, are you 'male-fail' or 'female':
    plz explain": (                                 )


For sure all this publicity will not bode well for us at all!

(ps: Am a big fan of Alice Dreger have requested a copy of her "review of How Sex Changed: A History of Transsexuality in the United States by Joanne Meyerowitz for the Journal of the History of Sexuality, vol. 15, no. 1 (2006).")
« Last Edit: June 20, 2020, 08:09:46 AM by Kiera »

Offline Complete

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Re: Surprise Surprise
« Reply #22 on: June 20, 2020, 04:58:16 PM »
Quote from: Complete on Yesterday at 04:14:09 PM
Why is it incumbent upon me to explain why you have a problem?

"Why is it that you always seem so hostile?"

Might you just be projecting hostility that you seem to feel toward me? Just a thought.
I do have a problem with the conflation of sex and gender. Not with you. Other than that false assumption that I'm by default hostile.


Quote: Complete
Perhaps you should explain how you see sex and gender as the same when they are clearly different.

"In the context of this decision, if a "man" starts presenting stereotypically as a woman might because they feel they have the gender of the opposite sex and gets fired for it, wouldn’t the basis for that be due to their SEX not being female?"

"For it?" Generalizations don't work. Did "he" just suddenly turn up in a dress and makeup? What is "his" job? What does "he" look like? How does "he" sound? Does the fact make "him" better or worse suited for "his" job position? What is the effect on the entire work team? I certainly do not have enough data to make an informed decision. Do you have a specific scenario in mind? Or are you assuming I'll just confirm the bias you seem to feel I have?


Quote: Complete
Nevertheless, since you seem intent on making this your line in the sand, consider this: In many jurisdictions, including the U.K., and far too many liberal/"progressive" US states, a man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate (or equivalent in the US), and be a woman in the sight of the law.

"Okay, so now the truth comes out as if it wasn’t already clear."

Do you realize whose "truth" you are projecting onto to those you simply cannot agree with?


"You just hate transgender people that don’t pass your muster and blame the problem of their existence on “liberal/progressives”.

WOW!! Now that is hateful presumption. Go easy on the nefarious Pink Kook-Aid. It is toxic.


"It’s hard to tell which you find most detestable – tranners or libtards?"

Oh! Now that is an easy one! Provided they are equally over the top, totally insane and hatefully fanatic, I find both trans-whack-tavists and "libtards" equally detestable. Note: I said trans-whack-tavists. It is they that are the problem. Not the "man" you mention above. Except in that "he" may have been convinced by them to act in a way that isn't very helpful.


"I can go to Mumsnet, 4thwavenow, peaktrans, transgendertrend or any gender critical (TERF) or conservative fundamentalist site if I want to read this paranoid bullshit."

Yes. I am sure uncomfortable FACTS might be highly disturbing to someone lost in the dogma. I'm not familiar with those sites. But to me "critical" does not equate "hostile."


"I’m no transgender apologist"

ROFLMAO...I sorry. I was just overwhelmed by the irony of your own inability to perceive your adherence to the "trans-dogma."


"....and have been called a tribalistic elitist and a separatist myself but you take the cake when it comes to those that don’t live up to your standards or meet your criteria. Obviously, you don’t want your little rarefied fiefdom invaded by those you don’t consider “real deal” transsexuals” because you’re so much better than them. This superiority is exactly how you come across. It’s unbecoming."

What "rarified fiefdom" are you referring to? Perhaps that "trannier than thou" meme so popular among the inhabitants of "trans-land"? I've never lived there, and it confuses me. Perhaps you might care to educate me?

What I've always been attacked for is my belief that we are different. Not that we're in any way better. That is something I've never asserted.


"Consider: I have taken hormones for over 48 years, have lived and worked exclusively as a female since I was 18 and have had major surgeries and other procedures to make my body as outwardly physically female as much as medically possible but the state I was born in still considers me to be male based on the conditions of my birth and nothing I have done or my experience in life will make them reconsider my legal status."

That is truly sad and terribly unjust. Perhaps more targeted legal or political action might be more appropriate than the carpet bombing approach "activists" seem to be engaged in.


"Should I have to reveal to an employer that my birth certificate lists me as male, do you think it would be fair for someone like me to be fired or not hired because of it? Isn’t it clear that whether that’s a matter of sex or gender, it’s still discriminatory?"

Do you believe that would happen? Surely you are not placing yourself in the same category with a man who has no desire, let alone the need to medically transition?


"Face it sweetie, all of us are of the male sex and you’re no better than the rest of us but it certainly seems you would like us all to believe somehow you are? Your thinly disguised contempt and sarcasm for those outside your vision of what real womanhood is or those that don’t live up to your expectations is plainly evident in practically everything you post and it’s pretty tiring."

Sweetie? Isn't that a bit condescending? Something a man might say when making a point?
Elisabeth, I don't want this to be about me and you. If you still see yourself to be in some part male, please speak just for yourself. Leave me out of it. Because to me real womanhood is just simply full and natural acceptance as such by both others and self....whether I am naked or clothed.


"Consider: If I was to get all uppity, exclusionary and go full truscum transbaby, what if I was to say that those not outwardly expressing cross-gender identification as children that didn’t transition as teenagers aren’t good enough or like me, you yourself would fall outside of my criteria and I doubt you would like that very much? Every single one of you has been and lived as a man and I have not but if I didn’t have a modicum of respect and understanding that you seem to be lacking for those with different experiences, I’d probably be as unhappy and angry as you are?"

Those are the very kind of tranny talking points that I don't subscribe to. I've stated my definition of real womanhood. The fact that I do not agree that any man who declares himself a woman actually is one does not equate to me being "angry and unhappy." That is just another false presumption I find tiring.

Why not take a break, and discuss these things independent of the tranny kook-aid?

Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Surprise Surprise
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2020, 05:19:55 PM »

Sweetie? Isn't that a bit condescending?

Absolutely! I am happy that came through so clearly.

I think I'm done with this place. It sucks.

Offline Complete

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Re: Surprise Surprise
« Reply #24 on: June 20, 2020, 05:56:35 PM »
Absolutely! I am happy that came through so clearly.

I think I'm done with this place. It sucks.

CYU....Wouldn't wanna be U

Offline Elisabeth

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Re: Surprise Surprise
« Reply #25 on: June 20, 2020, 06:26:50 PM »
CYU....Wouldn't wanna be U

Don't worry, you could never be me anyway!

I hope you find some peace in your life and can learn to be happy.

Ciao,
--Elisabeth

Offline Complete

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Re: Surprise Surprise
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2020, 07:01:49 PM »
Like I said Lisa, l have no desire whatsoever to "be you" or be like you. We both have our own lives, and like you I have been very fortunate. Where I am now is very happy, peaceful and rewarding. I sincerely hope you may feel the same peace. And I say that from my heart.

It's a shame that because of our political differences you seem unable to look beyond them. I know you see the many, many fallacies inherent in the tranny narrative. And I truly wish we could join in pointing them out.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2020, 04:44:12 AM by Complete »

Offline zirconia

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Re: Surprise Surprise
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2020, 05:25:41 AM »
I so wish I knew how to calm things down.

Elisabeth, Complete... I've seen you each offer an olive branch in turn.

I think I understand at least some of your differences. Even so, I'd love it if you could find a way to work side by side. Even if not as friends? I honestly think the conversations could give birth to something nice.

The commonality I see from the private communication I've had with you is directness. Raw truth and honesty of opinion. I guess it makes clashes easy to escalate, especially when differences and emotions get involved.

This forum cannot change the world. All it can do is explore thoughts and ideas, hopefully unafraid, from angles different than the common fare.

I hate to use myself as an example... but what I found on the net when I needed help the most only drove me ever deeper into terror and despair. It was only the realization of how simple things actually were that enabled me to move. And find peace.

While the doctors I finally went to did truly see, understand and want to help me, it was in part the words of both of you that gave me courage to first visit them. And cold, hard jagged truth and soft compassion Complete gave that ultimately freed me from the marsh of hopelessness.

I'll never have use for a happy echo chamber. But it would be lovely if what ricochets from the walls here could be not sharp shrapnel, but rather seeds or catalysts for further thought.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2020, 06:31:30 AM by zirconia »

Offline Kiera

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Re: Surprise Surprise
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2020, 05:34:23 AM »
I so wish I knew how to calm things down.

DITTO! lol By changing the subject?

It's a shame that because of our political differences [and] fallacies inherent in the tranny narrative.
       Complete it's a shame because Race, politics, and lived gender experience (among other things) seem to be great dividers of everybody these days. I like both you and Elisabeth, the writing styles and topics discussed, yet in divulging/sharing more of her personal life Elisabeth comes across as being more feminine vulnerable than you or, to put it another way, you seem more confident and assured in opinions that I can only attribute to a more retained sense of a gruff masculine supremacy . .

Or perhaps some autistic proclivities as well?

Not a criticism mind you as I'd like to think I share some "elitist" qualities as well but, on a "likable" scale, as much as I've come to admire your more direct approach & values, Elisabeth's sensitivities would still WIN hands down with me.

Point? Aside from the fear of alienating and losing Elisabeth and Antisthenes (thank you Dena 'cause I really don't have an answer for her either) I'm simply "interjecting" again have found an excellent pdf on "White Fragility" which, having not even finished reading yet, am still quite unsure if relevant or what to make of it myself.
Quote from: White Fragility
. . is a state in which even a minimum amount of racial stress becomes intolerable, triggering a range of defensive moves. These moves include the outward display of emotions such as anger, fear, and guilt, and behaviors such as argumentation, silence, and leaving the stress-inducing situation.

Substitute "gender fragility"? In any event are we indeed
"guilty" or, like so many other so-called "oppressed classes",
simply under direct attack as well?


(to me, the title itself suggests that we are! Also, what "triggered"
this was an article read on medium.com with more links embedded)

(ps: while not a fan of "the blue pill" gotta admit take at least two everyday
and Oh! btw with "mother" and "father" being rather sexist . . .)

Happy Transparent Day!
« Last Edit: June 21, 2020, 07:32:42 AM by Kiera »

Offline Complete

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Re: Surprise Surprise
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2020, 10:40:47 AM »
Quote from Kiera:
Quote
...yet in divulging/sharing more of her personal life Elisabeth comes across as being more feminine vulnerable than you or, to put it another way, you seem more confident and assured in opinions that I can only attribute to a more retained sense of a gruff masculine supremacy
I find your analysis, well....interesting.
You seem to equate vulnerability with femininity. Despite the reality that women are naturally more vunerable, l do not generally subscribe to that notion. Nor am looking to win popularity points or make "friends".
In addition, while our childhood environment certainly had influence on who we grew up to be, l know that there were countless, innumerable personal decisions that brought us all to exactly where we are right now....today.
I am happy and at peace where l am.

Offline Kiera

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Re: Surprise Surprise
« Reply #30 on: June 21, 2020, 12:07:08 PM »
I am happy and at peace where l am.
      Well, of course, nobody here likes/wants to be "somebody else" but some of us DO need "friends". After over 20 years of hanging with "MGTOW" I find good, friendly company to be still quite lacking . . not unlike somebody else we know?

Cheers! Am off to special day B-B-Q!

Offline zirconia

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Re: Surprise Surprise
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2020, 05:15:03 AM »
In addition, while our childhood environment certainly had influence on who we grew up to be, l know that there were countless, innumerable personal decisions that brought us all to exactly where we are right now....today.
I am happy and at peace where l am.

To me this is so important. The end result. And now.

The evaluation helped start unlock drawers full of painful memories. And seeing the exit to accept them, and cry. For the child who believed to be cursed and doomed. The terror of growing up, and the ensuing despair. The dread and abhorrence of the fraudulence offered as my destination should I fight the curse.

And the final relief on seeing I'd only ever needed to reject the lie. And just live. Just be.

I am here. Not yet whole... what I always most needed still remains. But finally alive and free.

And that's all I can ask for.

Offline Complete

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Re: Surprise Surprise
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2020, 12:56:33 PM »
Quote from Zirconia:
Quote
I am here. Not yet whole... what I always most needed still remains. But finally alive and free.

And that's all I can ask for.

Now that you have found the way, it is only a matter of your completing the final steps. All that is required is the Will, the courage, and the wherewithal. It is really up to you alone. No one else can do it for you, or much less, give you "permission".

Offline Complete

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Re: Surprise Surprise
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2020, 01:18:44 PM »
A quote from Kiera:
Quote
you seem more confident and assured in opinions that I can only attribute to a more retained sense of a gruff masculine supremacy
As l mentioned above, l put little credence in the idea that vulnerability equals femininity.
Another point where we can disagree is the notion that confidence or self assurance is somehow related to masculinity.
I suppose for some, meek passivity is a desirable femininine trait. I am sure there are many women who would join me in taking issue with that idea.

Offline Maddie

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Re: Surprise Surprise
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2020, 01:35:32 PM »
It seems in many cases that meek passivity has  become more of a required male trait.  For men who actually want to be married.  Women being meek and submissive as a rule has been long stomped out, hasn't it?? 
I bet on average most people would consider it old fashioned thinking, and all too easy to be disemboweled as male chauvinist priviliedge- just pick a negative term that doesn't apply to you personally and throw it at them

I could use a little meeking.  I don't take carp from people and assert myself.  Overall has worked out pretty good
Head up moving forward

Offline Complete

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Re: Surprise Surprise
« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2020, 04:48:23 PM »
It seems in many cases that meek passivity has  become more of a required male trait.  For men who actually want to be married.  Women being meek and submissive as a rule has been long stomped out, hasn't it?? 
I bet on average most people would consider it old fashioned thinking, and all too easy to be disemboweled as male chauvinist priviliedge- just pick a negative term that doesn't apply to you personally and throw it at them
What you are describing is a great example of PC group think. Theoretical balderdash repeated by unthinking drones in their efforts to belong.
I prefer coming to my own judgements on what works best for me.
After all "You can't please everyone, so you might as well please yourself.😇😎

Offline Kiera

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Re: Surprise Surprise
« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2020, 07:30:40 AM »
. . there are many women who would join me in taking issue with that idea.

     Surely! And which is why so many men, at least those who still value children (ie: as heirs to The Kingdom), can't stand the thought of "being married" at all anymore? It's an absolute BAD DEAL, have been there done that, as the only thing worse than "a woman who can't keep/please a man" are those "white knight" lawyers, politicians, & male-feminists who profit endlessly from protecting them?

So what exactly is the definition, the "idea" of, "A Woman" if "man" is no longer considered a part of the equation? Oh "woe" to me? We all love more taxpayors but . . but . .

lol And Complete! You seem to 'ave a problem pleasing ANYONE!

Offline Complete

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Re: Surprise Surprise
« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2020, 07:50:59 AM »
From Kiera:
Quote
lol Complete! And you seem to 'ave a problem pleasing ANYONE
Wrong again! Maybe you should try re-reading above. In any case, knowing the impossibility of pleasing everyone and recognizing the reality that most people are so lost in their loneliness and confusion, l have little hope or need to try.

In addition l strongly disagree with your conclusion here:
Quote
Surely! And which is why so many men, at least those who still value children (ie: as heirs to The Kingdom), can't stand the thought of "being married" at all anymore.
Perhaps these are your personal feelings, but l think otherwise. To over generalize, or project your personal feelings or conclusions onto the world in general, based on your own experience, is unwise.

Offline Kiera

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Re: Surprise Surprise
« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2020, 09:00:27 AM »
I stand corrected WHATEVER but still far from IMPRESSED (especially item #8 )

Quote from: 8 facts
The landscape of relationships in America has shifted dramatically in recent decades. From cohabitation to same-sex marriage to interracial and interethnic marriage, here are eight facts about love and marriage in the United States.
  • Half of Americans ages 18 and older were married in 2017,
    a share that has remained relatively stable in recent years
  • Love tops the list of Americans’ reasons to marry.
  • The number of U.S. adults cohabiting with a partner is on the rise.
  • Remarriage is on the rise.
  • One-in-six newlyweds (17%) were married to someone of a different race or ethnicity in 2015.
  • Support for the legalization of same-sex marriage
  • Millennials and Generation Z have been at the vanguard of changing views on same-sex marriage.
  • Sizable minorities of married people are members of a different religious group than their partner, but marriages and partnerships across political party lines are relatively rare.


« Last Edit: June 24, 2020, 04:06:36 AM by Kiera »

Offline Christine

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Re: Surprise Surprise
« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2020, 11:28:27 AM »
Hi Folks,                   23 June 2020

Don't like to intrude on others threads/topics but I have a bit to say in this regard as it does affect me and many others.

I personally don't like abortion, but, I'm not about to tell you, you cannot have one; it is after all, your body.

The part that affects me and others is the irresponsible bitch that continues conceiving with the expectation that you and I will/should pay for their support. Society should NOT have to support the irresponsible.

If I have to pay for someone else's poor life's choices, I think I should have some say in what they receive: They shouldn't receive any, with one exception. Children resulting from their irresponsible actions should be taken from them and put up for adoption. Those baby factories should then be sterilized after the first child and done on my/your dime (the one exception).

What I have written may seem harsh, but do you know what happens to the majority of those children? Have you ever heard of Prison?

Best Always, Love

Christine
Worrying Never Makes It Better.
Contact:
Christine@transhaven.org