Author Topic: Unfinished early morning ramblings... or, What is the meaning of "real?"  (Read 6068 times)

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Offline zirconia

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So... it's early morning. I have a bit of time on my hands. Nothing to do yet but sip coffee, think and relax... LOL. So I checked some other boards, reading just the titles and opened one.

"Passing", "not passing", "self-acceptance..."

Nothing new. A familiar subject that just about everyone active there seems to have lovingly contributed to.


Comradeship is nice. I also love my friends. But the condition I've been diagnosed with isn't something I want to spend much of my life on. In fact it's something I'd prefer to spend very little of my life on. Isn't that why I need treatment? Why I finally ended up asking for help? The pain was ever present. I want it to end. I want transition to be short. As short as possible. I want to leave it behind.

And... I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. But... somehow the never-ending chorus of commiseration I see wherever trans* crowds gather would almost seem to perpetuate it. Celebrate it.


In a way "the community" seems akin to an athletic team, whose members all cheer for each other while forever warming up for the games. Readying for life. But no-one starts playing. Rather, they go stretch, jog a bit, and come back either all excited or unhappy. Every little thing can be a wonderful conversation starter. Every little mishap something "everyone" can "relate" to. A seed for a philosophical pep rally.


Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe everyone is concentrating on the game, and only comes to report when something wonderfully special happens.

But no... the subjects belie that. Passing. Buying clothes. Discrimination. Makeup. What underwear is best. How do you close your bra... ugh. Passing. Passing. Non-passing. Acceptance. Civil rights. Transgender rights. Terminology! Political correctness! Male fail....

Self-acceptance is more important than passing.
Society must be changed.
Our rights must be protected
Discrimination...

Societal norms are too restrictive.
Standards of conventional beauty are bigoted and chauvinistic
Male / female are not binary because gender is a spectrum
Transgender women are "Real Women"

Ugh. I feel my pleasant restfulness dissipating. Maybe some more coffee might help...


Let me tell you a story.

There's a fermented sweet wine used for seasoning where I grew up that has a lovely freshness that does not cloy. If I wrote the name out as it should be you probably couldn't pronounce it, so let's just call it "Seasoning."

There's also a flavored sugar solution available whose brand name is (fanfare) "Real Seasoning."
And canned cheap fish prepared to resemble a more rare and precious one sold under the brand name "Real Fish."
And a sharp grated spice made of another root and tinted with food coloring to match whose brand name is "Real Spice."

They're all perfectly good products. The ones without the "Real" prefix are just more expensive. And have a more complex and delicate taste that the "Real" versions try to imitate.

I'm not sure of the details, but it apparently started a good time ago, when someone wanted to market a Seasoning substitute for the masses. Fermenting takes time and effort, and he wanted to produce a cheap substitute. But of course naming it "Sugar Solution" would not have helped promote it as a Seasoning substitute. So he consulted lawyers, and eventually everyone including the courts agreed that real things don't have qualifier. And so today, when people here buy anything with the prefix "Real," it's implicit that they're buying a substitute.


Ah... a bit more coffee.

Unfortunately the house I spent the night in doesn't have a functioning kitchen so it will need to come from a bottle.
It's store bought... cold... but still nice.
Let's look at the ingredients.
Yes. Coffee. Just coffee.
Nothing else. No matter how cold and store bought, it's r.... oops, no.
Coffee.


Hm. So where was I. Oh yes, "Real."

So... culturally I guess I'm predisposed to consider anything called "Real" fake. Real things don't need qualifiers. When's the last time you heard your mother call herself a "Real Woman?" Or your sister? Or aunt?

Men... Hmmm..... I guess in English people do sometimes refer to someone saying "He's a Real Man." But when they do I believe they mean that person has an abundance of certain masculine attributes that the speaker admires. But the base premise is that the person is male to start with. The "Real" in this case just emphasizes how very male he is. Have you ever heard a man say "I'm a Real Man?"


But... now I'm starting to ramble again. Like always when I start to write aimlessly. I just hope this isn't too boring.


What I wanted to say is... what is our need? What do we want from transition? What do we need to be? Normal women? Or Real Women?

If the latter, then great. It's a perfectly legitimate category. A group known and acknowledged to be different from both normal men and women. That has its very own unique community and unwritten rules of conduct—just like the normal girl and boy groups do. An ever expanding social club where one can happily spend the rest of one's life immersed in the company of like-minded Real Women. Ever discussing issues unique to themselves. Just like normal men and women do.

But if the first... then it's not about changing society, or civil rights, or normalization or visibility or self-acceptance.
Unlike the Real Women group, the normal girl group is and will always be invitation only. And the criteria are unwritten. But clear.

They all just might be summarized as follows. "Belong."

And some tenets Very Much valued by Real Women—such as "Visibility"—Very Much conflict with this.

So... where does this lead?
The thoughts in my head have not taken final form. But I've almost no coffee left... and while what I've written is unfinished I need to start work now...

Maybe someone can continue from here. Either tear the whole thing apart, or finish it for me...♡

Offline karen_A

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"Passing", "not passing", "self-acceptance..."

Nothing new. A familiar subject that just about everyone active there seems to have lovingly contributed to.

Looking at old post here, most but not everyone.

Transitioning tends make one insecure and self conscious, at least for a while. Some get past that and some not.

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Comradeship is nice. I also love my friends. But the condition I've been diagnosed with isn't something I want to spend much of my life on.
But it will be with you always... that is why one sees even people like Elizabeth (Lisa) on T fora... Over the years on-line I have run into a who transitioned in the 70's, which tells me it does tend stay a factor to some degree no matter how one lives one's life.

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In fact it's something I'd prefer to spend very little of my life on. Isn't that why I need treatment? Why I finally ended up asking for help? The pain was ever present. I want it to end. I want transition to be short. As short as possible. I want to leave it behind.

I think most of us feel that way starting out.

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And... I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. But... somehow the never-ending chorus of commiseration I see wherever trans* crowds gather would almost seem to perpetuate it. Celebrate it.

That is the only stuff that we are just about guaranteed to have in common... other that that we are as diverse in interests and attitudes as the general population. For example, looking over the old posts here, I'm am not sure I feel comfortable with the preponderance of what i see as very conservative political views here.

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In a way "the community" seems akin to an athletic team, whose members all cheer for each other while forever warming up for the games. Readying for life. But no-one starts playing.

Most people do progress, but eventually get as far as they can (that place that is different for each person for a myriad reasons)... But once post-op over time they they end to post less or just not in the type of topics you talk about...

But wherever they wind up in the long run it just becomes their day to day life.

But remember in most fora the teh majority of posts will be from people early in (or pre) transition.

I was once on mailing list that was part-op only and had over 100 members... Not a lot of the stuff you talk about in your post there! It eventually self destructed over lifestyle issues unfortunately.

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Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe everyone is concentrating on the game, and only comes to report when something wonderfully special happens.

Day to day life for most people tends to be pretty boring to other people! ;)

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Passing. Buying clothes. Discrimination. Makeup. What underwear is best. How do you close your bra... ugh. Passing. Passing. Non-passing.

While it happens (and I do talk about passing)  how many long term post-ops do you see posting about that stuff? Not many.

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Acceptance. Civil rights. Transgender rights.
Important while transitioning for survival and employment, and long term for those that don't pass well, as well as those who do pass well and it's matter of principle fighting for what is right. And of course fear an insecurity figure unto it as well.

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Terminology! Political correctness!
IMO based in insecurity

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Male fail....
A state during transition, that can result in some amusing situations! But that passes.

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Self-acceptance is more important than passing.
I think they go hand in hand. Both are needed and are interrelated IMO.

Humans are social animals so having others see and treat you as what you feel about yourself helps reinforce your own identity... the opposite will tend to make self acceptance harder.

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And so today, when people here buy anything with the prefix "Real," it's implicit that they're buying a substitute.

I get the point, however unless one is totally stealth (and many can not get there for various reasons) from the first day they transition, having MTF's seen as disordered males does have a significant negative effects on one's life. So what are are those who can not be stealth supposed to do?

That said i know one can't forcefully change people's attitudes... and I don't know if there ever will be a time that people who "know" truly see us as woman despite "knowing" - determining not in my lifetime...

 But anti-discrimination laws over time do have a positive effect, even if they don't stamp out discrimination.

I'm not and never will be a trans crusader, and I don't like how high a profile TSism has in the media ... it certainly makes things difficult for what I want...

But what is the alternative?

-Karen
« Last Edit: July 04, 2020, 01:09:16 PM by karen_A »

Offline zirconia

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Hi, Karen

It's lovely to get calm feedback. I guess what was in the back of my mind when writing the above was the way this whole type of discussion is banned just about everywhere. As the recent lovely comments from a moderator someone else so nicely demonstrate...

Transitioning tends make one insecure and self conscious, at least for a while. Some get past that and some not.

I concur. Maybe I should have described the discussion in question in more detail... because it always was that particular content that really made me nervous and afraid. To summarize it and most of the conversations that are more than cursory, they go like this:

-"Can I pass?"
"A few can, most can't."
"If you do, great, but don't worry. You're still a Real Woman!"
"The beauty standards of the world are cisnormative!"
"It's Society that needs to change, and for that to happen we should just be visible..."

Now... for me that always gave birth to absolute terror. Put bluntly, the message ever since I started searching was twofold. First, only those who transition as children can disappear. Second, since I hadn't, for me to even try was an act of treason against the group to which I was by default assigned. Forever.

LOL.

But it will be with you always... that is why one sees even people like Elizabeth (Lisa) on T fora... Over the years on-line I have run into a who transitioned in the 70's, which tells me it does tend stay a factor to some degree no matter how one lives one's life.

Again, there is more than one kind of forgetting. I was surprised to realize the ultimate volume of memories I'd repressed. Not only the obvious extremely traumatic one that I felt sealed my fate... but out of that despair also some that would have helped keep the hope alive.

And then there is the kind I described earlier. A healed hurt that it takes effort to remember. Yes, my past injuries sometimes remind me of themselves. But not daily. If I look up what the new treatment methods are it is not out of pain, but out of curiosity.

When you indicate most of us want transition to be short and something we leave behind when starting out, do you mean we change our minds as things progress? Because it seems like many if not most people on the boards do seem to consider transition as a journey of discovery, valuable in itself. And describe it as such to people who haven't even started.

What I wanted—needed—it to be was a stepping over a doorsill. Even knowing it can't be completely instantaneous. I resisted the need for ages out of fear of the endless sojourn promised by the general narrative... and the promise of in any case never reaching what I truly needed.

With a "But the alternative is just as good" tagged on as consolation or reassurance.

That is the only stuff that we are just about guaranteed to have in common... other that that we are as diverse in interests and attitudes as the general population. For example, looking over the old posts here, I'm am not sure I feel comfortable with the preponderance of what i see as very conservative political views here.

Commiseration as a common factor does not seem to me very constructive. It would imply permanence of suffering. Both I and others have used amputees as allegory in the past. While their limbs won't grow back, the amputees I know have just wished to learn to walk normally and not make an issue of their handicap. To them it was not a source of pride. Nor was it an "identity." Just something that happened and had to be dealt with, hopefully well enough to enable them to live completely normal lives.

So let me take this further once again. Someone amputated at the hip can hardly expect to be able to walk in a completely normal fashion without a limp. A good robotic assistance device (FFS) might help... but I've never heard an amputee claim that retaining a limp is a Good Thing for the amputee community as a whole.

Every single one I've known has just wanted to regain as much normalcy as possible. Not "normalize" his condition. Not even when just starting rehabilitation.

Most people do progress, but eventually get as far as they can (that place that is different for each person for a myriad reasons)... But once post-op over time they they end to post less or just not in the type of topics you talk about...

But wherever they wind up in the long run it just becomes their day to day life.
But remember in most fora the teh majority of posts will be from people early in (or pre) transition.

I was once on mailing list that was part-op only and had over 100 members... Not a lot of the stuff you talk about in your post there! It eventually self destructed over lifestyle issues unfortunately.

Day to day life for most people tends to be pretty boring to other people! ;)

Yes. I do understand that many of those posting on the boards are fairly new.
But... and I feel this to be a big factor... their message and feelings seem pretty much identical to those of the professional activists.
So anyone just looking for a way out—a door to normalcy—is instead met with dogma and indoctrination. And censure of any other opinions.
Again, I found this terrifying.

"Is this my destination if I try to escape this pain?"

And... all of this is lauded as wonderful. Progressive. The Right Thing. Normalization over normalcy. While those wishing to be no different than their own sisters are denounced as "cisnormative."


While it happens (and I do talk about passing)  how many long term post-ops do you see posting about that stuff? Not many.
Important while transitioning for survival and employment, and long term for those that don't pass well, as well as those who do pass well and it's matter of principle fighting for what is right. And of course fear an insecurity figure unto it as well.
IMO based in insecurity
A state during transition, that can result in some amusing situations! But that passes.
I think they go hand in hand. Both are needed and are interrelated IMO.

Humans are social animals so having others see and treat you as what you feel about yourself helps reinforce your own identity... the opposite will tend to make self acceptance harder.

Yes... all of this is understandable. Once again, the point is that the conversations seem to gravitate to the pattern I described at the beginning of this post. Which felt like torture. Because my primary need always was to be just like my sisters. LOL.

And... note the word "identity." Again, I may be the odd one, but my identity always was "me." Since my body made me male, I was a boy, a youth and a man. But I did not like it. At all. It was just a vile and horrifying fact.

But I did not "identify" as a man or a woman. Let alone transwoman. To survive the pain I did increasingly and consciously ignore the mores and norms expected of men while adamantly hanging on to the male title. I was me. Unfortunately doomed to be a man by my body. But I did not have to conform.
 
Ultimately this pain control failed. I acquiesced to my family's advice and cajoling and went to see the doctors. And found there was a way out.

And from the kind words of someone who had walked the path that it was much simpler than I had thought.

But... I still remain the same. Just me.

I get the point, however unless one is totally stealth (and many can not get there for various reasons) from the first day they transition, having MTF's seen as disordered males does have a significant negative effects on one's life. So what are are those who can not be stealth supposed to do?

That said i know one can't forcefully change people's attitudes... and I don't know if there ever will be a time that people who "know" truly see us as woman despite "knowing" - determining not in my lifetime...

 But anti-discrimination laws over time do have a positive effect, even if they don't stamp out discrimination.

I'm not and never will be a trans crusader, and I don't like how high a profile TSism has in the media ... it certainly makes things difficult for what I want...

But what is the alternative?

Thank you for understanding. As you mentioned earlier, biology is a factor that cannot be erased. While it's been discussed before, the boards usually censor such conversations. The concept of reproductive instinct affecting people's reactions and attitudes just cannot be allowed to exist.

There are people where I grew up who absolutely can't pass. They have a specific name. And while activists are now trying hard to make it so, that name has not to date been seen as  derogatory. And while people do see them as "other" they are an accepted part of society—generally gravitating toward entertainment and bar businesses. They often work two jobs. One "normal" during the day, and one where they dress as they wish during the evening. Many love men. Some love women. Yes—it is the kind of double life that I myself don't understand... but until now they have not claimed to be identical to normal women.

In their evening job the way they are and feel is a tremendous asset. Sometimes they get more pay in the evenings than during the day jobs. And sometimes quit the daytime jobs when they realize that. One acquaintance used to take a taxi nightly from the workplace back home—a distance of about 40 miles. He could easily afford it.

There are cultural differences. Perhaps where you live work like that is seen as immoral or looked down on. In a way our world, while ostensibly much more conservative, is extremely accommodating of differences. Choosing work is making a life. Perhaps that makes accepting the fact one is different easier.

Those who pass generally disappear from the world of entertainment when they marry, or find a permanent lover. Some become celebrities... as they may also do there. But again, they are seen as different and interesting. Not looked down on. And not made a big deal of.

However... activists here are also trying to change that. With the result that e.g. the common courtesy based abstinence of those who don't pass from using women's facilities has been eroded—resulting in the first ordinance in the history of the country banning such use. It's as if they were trying to intentionally sow discord.

As for anti-discrimination laws over time having a positive effect... I don't know your history well enough to comment.
All I can say is that in my case the diligent efforts of American teachers to stamp out non-existent discrimination had a rather different effect.


I don't know all the answers. Or even some. But...

I believe it's not wrong to wish for normalcy.
And that trying to convince people it's unattainable is detrimental.
And that spurning it as "damaging to the community" is inexcusable.

Normalcy is all I myself ever needed.

Offline zirconia

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P.S.

Here's a fresh typical example of what perplexed me:

Some people feel the need to have FFS, some don't.
Some people need to do SRS, and some are happy with their bodies as they are.  Or maybe they'd like to change, but the cost and/or risks are more than they want to bear (or maybe can bear.)
Etc.

Even "transition" means different things to different people.  Some people go the whole route of a name change and birth certificate change.  But I know people who've been living as another gender but haven't bothered with either.  And for some people, simply knowing who they are is enough, they don't feel the need to go any further.


Note how transition itself is defined. Entirely social. Even "the whole route" is merely juridical.

And how all physical treatment is described as completely optional.

For someone whose entire discomfort hinged on the very specific physical discrepancy that he'd since when he was tiny felt absolutely doomed him to being male, this felt extremely disorienting. Claiming just social status as female would have meant lying. And clothes had no effect on what was wrong.

What devastated me was physical reality...


PPS.

I'd also like to be clear... the path that has finally given me hope is not the right one for everyone. Just like the one I thought for so long to be the only option exacerbated my hopelessness. The fact that what was on offer brought me despair does not make it wrong in and of itself—just wrong for me because I needed something different.

Even so... the erasure and banning of what I needed does very much upset me. I hope from my heart that no-one else needs to go through as much as I did to finally realize that what she needs does exist. And is attainable.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2020, 05:39:16 AM by zirconia »

Offline Dena

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That is the only stuff that we are just about guaranteed to have in common... other that that we are as diverse in interests and attitudes as the general population. For example, looking over the old posts here, I'm am not sure I feel comfortable with the preponderance of what i see as very conservative political views here.
Years ago I was at a gun range with some friends. Normally between rounds, there are several hours of idle time so we engage in many interesting and not so interesting discussions. One day Peter made the statement that you should pick the most important issue and vote for the person who supports that view. That didn't feel right to me but at the time I couldn't offer a better idea.

I thought for a long time about that and came up with what I think is a better idea. You should vote for the person who will best supports the constitution and the rule of law.  You may think my views are conservative however in the last election it was difficult to decide who to vote for as I felt neither person was close to meeting this standard. I selected the one who I thought might come closer and voted for that person. Am I proud of my selection? No. I would have like to have voted for somebody better but that was all that was offered.

The constitution has kept us free and safe from a dictator for about 235 years and somebody will have to prove that they clearly have a better solution before I will part with my belief in it. Remember that it is a document that the people assign powers to the government. If the power isn't assigned to the government, it remains with the people unless they should assign the power to the local government. You have a good deal more freedom that you think and freedoms you may think you don't have are because the government took a power from you that was not assigned to them.

As for this web site and politics, I was moderating on a site were conservative viewpoints weren't allowed. If I wanted to make a post supporting a conservative view point, it wasn't possible. I will not moderate political viewpoints that I am opposed to as long as they are polite and rationally expressed. I will moderate viewpoints I agree with if they fail to follow these rules.  I welcome ideas that are different from mine because they validate or expose the weakness in my viewpoints. Opposing idea are also interesting to explore and think about because they may contain a truth I hadn't thought of.

As I said, I support the constitution and not permitting free speech even when I disagree with the idea would be hypocritical of me. Conservative ideas and the constitution tend to parallel each other however just because you say you're conservative, doesn't mean you follow the idea of the constitution. This is why I consider myself neither a Republican or Democrat and instead consider myself a constitutionalist. It might be difficult to understand but there are options other than Republican or Democrat.
Email contact through dena@transhaven.org

Offline Complete

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Quote from Zirconia:
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Comradeship is nice. I also love my friends. But the condition I've been diagnosed with isn't something I want to spend much of my life on.
Who would? It's hell on earth. The simple truth is one need only take those extremely difficult and costly steps to correct the problem in a timely and expeditious manner. Obviously, not the easiest thing to do but....consider the alternative.

Quote from Karen:
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But it will be with you always
Speaking for myself, since that is the extent of what l know for sure, l have to strongly disagree with what l see as an over-generalization of your own experience.

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....that is why one sees even people like Elizabeth (Lisa) on T fora...
Maybe yes. Perhaps Lisa does suffer from some discomfort or insecurity. And then again...Maybe NOT. Perhaps she has other reasons for contributing her knowledge and experience.
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Over the years on-line I have run into a who transitioned in the 70's, which tells me it does tend stay a factor to some degree no matter how one lives one's life.
Clearly that is your personal inference, based on your own experiences and biases and could very well be a valid one.
However, since you couch your assertion with the HUGE caveate that "this tends[/i] to stay a factor to some degree....l am sure you recognize that your assertion is not well supported beyond your own feelings.
In addition, l think how you live your life...is very important.
I think living what 95% of the human population would consider a "normal lifestyle" has a great deal to do with how one sees oneself or feels about themselves.

Offline karen_A

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Speaking for myself, since that is the extent of what l know for sure, l have to strongly disagree with what l see as an over-generalization of your own experience.

And there you are wrong... I may not have transitioned (1997) as long ago as you, but between between those I have known in person and the many long term post-ops I have corresponded with on line. At least two were Harry Benjamin patients as a number had SRS with Biber or Granato In NYC as Well as other surgeons who are no longer active. I found the on-line community in the late 80s and there were a lot of old timer around on-line - more than one sees today. As i mentioned I was also on a post-op only mailing list with over 100 a number dated back to the 70's and 80s fro their transitions... So I speak from everything I have learned in the last 30+ years, not just my experience.

Of course there are exceptions to everything who it copes to people... but trends do exist.

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Perhaps Lisa does suffer from some discomfort or insecurity.

I would say any long therm post op posts in forums because they either see a need or have a need (and it does no need to be discomfort or insecurity) but either way it is because of something they don't share with other women... and it matters to them.

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Clearly that is your personal inference, based on your own experiences and biases and could very well be a valid one.
To a degree so is everyone's... but as I explained I am talking about a much wider sample of experience than my own.


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However, since you couch your assertion with the HUGE caveate that "this tends to stay a factor to some degree....l am sure you recognize that your assertion is not well supported beyond your own feelings.

On that we will have to agree to disagree.

-karen

Offline karen_A

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I thought for a long time about that and came up with what I think is a better idea. You should vote for the person who will best supports the constitution and the rule of law.

Interpreting the constitution and figuring how it should apply to a world vastly different from the ones the framer's experienced is no simple task.

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  You may think my views are conservative
I knew that from the other board, but that is OK.

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Am I proud of my selection? No. I would have like to have voted for somebody better but that was all that was offered.

Well one option was not quite as portrayed by teh opposition... and the other one was worst. One was at least competent and the other not ... IMO of course.

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Remember that it is a document that the people assign powers to the government. If the power isn't assigned to the government, it remains with the people unless they should assign the power to the local government.

Do you have a problem with the government mandating mask wearing during a pandemic for teh public good? This gets back to the question where does one person's right end and another's begins and who has the right to determine that for society.

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I will not moderate political viewpoints that I am opposed to as long as they are polite and rationally expressed.

I hope you did not take what I posted personally. I saw your temperament on teh other forum and have no issue with it. I was speaking if what I though were more extreme views/expressions than any of yours!

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It might be difficult to understand but there are options other than Republican or Democrat.

With the number registered as indpendants no so hard!

-Karen

Offline karen_A

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-"Can I pass?"
"A few can, most can't."

I don't know what the percentages are but I would say a significant number can pass, and a significant number can't ALL the time... but both groups deserve to live their lives in dignity and be respected.

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"If you do, great, but don't worry. You're still a Real Woman!"

So what is some one who IS TS and has tried all the could and and asked all by transitioning, but can't pass all the time think of themselves? As a fake?... That is the message most of the  non-T's (and a few TSes who do pass) give to them... That can do a number on them on the long run.

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"The beauty standards of the world are cisnormative!"

One think to remember is that passing is not synonymous with beauty.

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"It's Society that needs to change, and for that to happen we should just be visible..."

Society does need to change in two it treats people who are seen as different be it for race or changing sex... They are right in that being invisible does not promote change... and some who pass very well do chose to be out, but all those who pass are under no obligation to be out... Those who say all need to be out or all need to be stealth are extremist out of touch with reality and don't really care about individual's lives and needs.

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First, only those who transition as children can disappear.

Not only but the later one does, on average (there are always exceptions) the harder it gets.

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Second, since I hadn't, for me to even try was an act of treason against the group to which I was by default assigned. Forever.

That is ridiculous... Of course when I transitioned, those I knew going through it then, everyone's goal was to pass well... Not everyone made it there however.


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When you indicate most of us want transition to be short and something we leave behind when starting out, do you mean we change our minds as things progress?
I depends on how things go... If they are not working out one has to find a way to make peace with where they can get to (or find a way to cope it with - and some coping methods are not very healthy)

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Because it seems like many if not most people on the boards do seem to consider transition as a journey of discovery, valuable in itself. And describe it as such to people who haven't even started.

But that is what it is. When you change how you live your life to such a great extent you experience many different things that can cause you to grow and change... think of it as an adolescent discovering who they are , often trying many different things to figure who exactly they are and how they fit into the world... But adolescence is not (or should not) be forever...

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I resisted the need for ages out of fear of the endless sojourn promised by the general narrative... and the promise of in any case never reaching what I truly needed.

I grew up at time when one really needed to be able to pass well to even be treated, and treatment of children was not even thought about... And by the 8th grade I was bigger then most men... There is a reason why even though I was sneaking out of house dressed in my mothers clothes in the 6-7th grade at night, I never thought doing anything about it was possible for me... and when I started therapy with a gender therapist at 39 it was hard to even tell her why i was there...I was so afraid of dealing with this, that I would wind up alone and on the streets...

It took awhile but it got to the point that not at least trying despite the odds was unbearable... and I can assure you I wanted (still do really) to be seen as normal woman.



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So let me take this further once again. Someone amputated at the hip can hardly expect to be able to walk in a completely normal fashion without a limp. A good robotic assistance device (FFS) might help... but I've never heard an amputee claim that retaining a limp is a Good Thing for the amputee community as a whole.

I have never hard anyone say that with respect to FFS..
But FFS is VERY expensive and can be VERY painful (as I can attest , the first 3 days after were the most miserable of my life!) so for either reason some may say such things.

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Yes. I do understand that many of those posting on the boards are fairly new.
But... and I feel this to be a big factor... their message and feelings seem pretty much identical to those of the professional activists.

Over the years, in general I have not found that... But the venues today seem to be different from what they were.



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Thank you for understanding. As you mentioned earlier, biology is a factor that cannot be erased. While it's been discussed before, the boards usually censor such conversations. The concept of reproductive instinct affecting people's reactions and attitudes just cannot be allowed to exist.

Which of course is nonsense.

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There are people where I grew up who absolutely can't pass. They have a specific name.

I assume you mean transvestites... I can assure you there are "real" TSes who very often get read have never been transvestites... I have known such people in 3D and I can assure you they are real... just with unfortunate physical features (more so than me)

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And while activists are now trying hard to make it so, that name has not to date been seen as  derogatory. And while people do see them as "other" they are an accepted part of society—generally gravitating toward entertainment and bar businesses.

I have known very passable TSes who starred out as female impersonators MANY years ago because that is what they need to do to survive at teh time, who had SRS and now have been stealth for decades and married to men for many years...

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As for anti-discrimination laws over time having a positive effect... I don't know your history well enough to comment.

Think race. Still a long way to go, but there has been progress. I remember the 60's... and lived in the inner city projects back then.

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I believe it's not wrong to wish for normalcy.
Of course not.

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And that trying to convince people it's unattainable is detrimental.

But telling them it is ALWAYS possible for everyone can be just as detrimental... The truth is important and the truth is on average, the later in life one starts the more difficult it can be and not EVERYONE can get there just because they need to... and those people need respect.

-karen
« Last Edit: July 05, 2020, 07:24:45 PM by karen_A »

Offline zirconia

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I don't know what the percentages are but I would say a significant number can pass, and a significant number can't ALL the time... but both groups deserve to live their lives in dignity and be respected.

I agree.

So what is some one who IS TS and has tried all the could and and asked all by transitioning, but can't pass all the time think of themselves? As a fake?... That is the message most of the  non-T's (and a few TSes who do pass) give to them... That can do a number on them on the long run.

I agree. What I don't understand is the dissuasion from trying I've seen. Mostly by people who seem to feel it is ultimately detrimental. Put very bluntly their attitude often seems similar to someone moving to America, declaring one is an American without getting nationalized, and disregarding the local customs. What puzzles me is why these voices get accolades.

One think to remember is that passing is not synonymous beauty.

True. And I guess it feels good to be lauded as beautiful even if one does not pass. However, the general trend seems to be to laud everyone with comments such as "I see nothing but a beautiful woman" when asked for feedback on passing. I don't know how that helps anyone who is actually trying to. Rather it would to me seem to create false expectations.

I remember one member at Susan's who actually did try to give fair, kind and truthful feedback on a thread called "Do I pass" or something like that. Dena might know the details, but it seemed to me she deleted her account due to the responses she got.

Society does need to change in two it treats people who are seen as different be it for race or changing sex... They are right in that being invisible does not promote change... and some who pass very well do chose to be out, but all those who pass are under no obligation to be out... Those who say all need to be out or all need to be stealth are extremist out of touch with reality and don't really care about individual's lives and needs.

Humans are animals... and I completely agree with what you earlier mentioned about our biological programming. Do you believe it is possible to override it?
I personally doubt it. In my view the way both women and men relate to and treat each other is largely determined by the mating instinct—which is borne out by the similarities present throughout the world regardless of culture.

Equality in front of law is possible. But to expect to be treated just like a normal woman even if one is not instinctually sensed to be such would to me seem a stretch of imagination.

Those indistinguishable from girls in general invite more curiosity than animosity. And that I guess can be capitalized on by those who don't. Which I suspect is one motivation for the coercion to be "out" that I see.

Not only but the latter one does, on average (there are always exceptions) the harder it gets.

I agree.

That is ridiculous... Of course when I transitioned, those I knew going through it then, everyone's goal was to pass well... Not everyone made it there however.

I agree. Yet the voices that dissuade people from trying, and instead aim for self-acceptance seem the most lauded. Why is this?

I depends nohow things go... If they are not working out one has to find a way to make peace with where they can get to (or find a way to cope it with - and some coping methods are not very healthy)

I understand. Yet, here again, whenever someone new comes along, everyone seems to emphasize transition as a wonderful journey... that leads to being "transgender" forever. LOL.

But that is what it is. When you change how you live your life to such a great extent you experience many different things that can cause you to grow and change... think of it as an adolescent discovering who they are , often trying many different things to figure who exactly they are and how they fit into the world... But adolescence is not (or should not) be forever...

Hmm... I do have a lot to learn in regard to the ways of men and women...♡
But other than that, doesn't learning follow any move, whether it be to a new country or even city? At least I would consider transition to be the move itself. Isn't learning what we need on arrival just a normal part of life?

As for changes to one's life—which ones do you refer to? What I've felt to date is mostly release from having to consciously control how I speak and move. And that both my male and female friends and relatives relate to me differently. And the men I know are much more protective. Oh... and I don't get as many unnecessary business cards. LOL. As for strangers—I stopped correcting them some years ago, so I doubt whether I'll see much of a change.

Be that as it may, I did find statements such as "Transition is a journey that is over when you want it to, and leads to wherever you wish" to be unhelpful. They certainly increased my anxiety.

I grew up at time when one really needed to be able to pass well to even be treated, and treatment of children was not even thought about... And by teh 8th grade I was bigger then most men... There is a reason why even though I was stealing out of house dressed in my mothers clothes in teh 6-7th grade, I never though doing anything about it was possible for me... and when I started therapy with a gender therapist at 39 it was hard to even tell her why i was there...I was so afraid of dealing with thus that I would wind up alone and on the streets...

It took awhile but it got to the point that not at least trying despite the odds was unbearable... and I can assure you I wanted (still do really) to be seen as normal woman.

It must have been absolutely horrible... I know that with the first signs of puberty I felt the world come to an end. And the dread of what awaited had lain heavy on me for a long time even before then. I can only feel for you... and hope you've found your way to where you are happy and at peace.

I assume you mean transvestites... I can assure you there are "real" TSes who very often get read have never been transvestites... I have known such people in 3D and I can assure you they are real... just with unfortunate physical features (more so than me)

LOL... No. The transliteration of the local word for transvestite would be "People whose hobby is to dress in women's clothes." It's a different category.
My point was that in some cultures those who absolutely know they don't pass don't insist on being seen as Real Women who are in every way the same as normal women. They accept themselves as they are, different, and are accepted as such by others. And that in itself does not have to be inherently bad.

Think race. Still a long way to go, but there has been progress. I remember teh 60's... and lived in teh inner city projects back then.

Again, this is way beyond my ken. I described the only direct experience I had with the American situation in the link I gave.

But telling them it is ALWAYS possible for everyone can be just as detrimental... The truth is important and the truth is on average, the later in life one starts the more difficult it can be and not EVERYONE can get there just because they need to... and those people need respect.

I've never seen anyone say it is possible for everyone... but the opposite definitely. And that we shouldn't even try.

As for respect—isn't that obvious? But respect needs to be earned and upkept... and some of the things I've seen (e.g. the incident here that gave birth to the local ordinance prohibiting males from using female spaces, and a foreign non-op insisting on going to the women's public bath) don't seem to take that into account.

Edit: Missing words
« Last Edit: July 05, 2020, 07:55:18 PM by zirconia »

Offline Complete

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Quote from: karen_A on Today at 01:02:53 PM
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So what is some one who IS TS and has tried all the could and and asked all by transitioning, but can't pass all the time think of themselves? As a fake?... That is the message most of the  non-T's (and a few TSes who do pass) give to them... That can do a number on them on the long run.
If you blame someone else for your problems then it is easy to avoid looking at what could very be the true source of that problem. I think there is an intentional mis-interpretation of the message being delivered. It's like Zirconia said. How can someone, anyone, insist on how they are perceived by others. We only have control over our own feelings and actions....NOT those of others.
Yet this seems to be what the Left and the "trans-community" demands. Some might call that mind control.
Since I don't yet possess that particular super-power l can't help you how you must/might/should think of yourself. Obviously, that is up to you.

Offline karen_A

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I agree.

I agree. What I don't understand is the dissuasion from trying I've seen.

I have seen people say it's not necessary, or were militantly against it because of philosophical/ political considerations but I never felt they were teh majority..

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Mostly by people who seem to feel it is ultimately detrimental.

If you are talking about stealth, depending on teh degree it is taken to,  and the individual's  situation/emotional makeup it can be...

Consider this. On another forum I have been on there was a very bright, very charismatic long term post-op who had quite a following.. What she advocated was not "telling" even someone you might marry. I know of several situations it coming out unexpectedly distorted marriages, and that really messed up both lives...

I was the only on for awhile who had an issue with her position and and argued with her about it... which made me a target for some of her acolytes.

My argument was we have no need to disclose to anybody unless and until people start making lifetime commitments like marriage ... then because of the possible consequences of it coming out unexpectedly, as well as the the potential corrosive effect of keeping that secret for decades from a life partner, to be fair to the partner, one should disclose then.

Well I was accused of saying that was telling the person you are not a woman, and that teh partner really did not want to know etc etc...

We should not HAVE deal with that, and the possible rejection of telling... It is very unfair... But it is what it is. This condition does not make life easy and means we have to deal with difficult things others do not.

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True. And I guess it feels good to be lauded as beautiful even if one does not pass. However, the general trend seems to be to laud everyone with comments such as "I see nothing but a beautiful woman" when asked for feedback on passing.

Never trust want another TS says about your possibility... Often he response is related to about their own passability , or (if one does not pass well) they don't want to hurt your feelings... Only rely on the reactions of those that don't "know".

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I remember one member at Susan's who actually did try to give fair, kind and truthful feedback on a thread called "Do I pass" or something like that. Dena might know the details, but it seemed to me she deleted her account due to the responses she got.

I did not believe the feedback I see on that thread... but remember for many that is an emotional minefield and it's best just to say what I said above.

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Humans are animals... and I completely agree with what you earlier mentioned about our biological programming. Do you believe it is possible to override it?

To some degree... social norms do that in terms of with whom and at what age people can have  sex... but not completely.


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I agree. Yet the voices that dissuade people from trying, and instead aim for self-acceptance seem the most lauded. Why is this?

That has not been most of my on-line experience... Most of my time on-line have been in primarily TS forums. Susan's is an aberration in that , which I looked into because my "home" forum for the last 20 years has been withering away for a number of years and is just about effectively dead.

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But other than that, doesn't learning follow any move, whether it be to a new country or even city?

It is essential learning to be part of different culture with different rules and expectations...

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At least I would consider transition to be the move itself. Isn't learning what we need on arrival just a normal part of life?

In principle but IMO not in degree.

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As for changes to one's life—which ones do you refer to?
The societal expectations.

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It must have been absolutely horrible...

I also grew up in horrible situation I would not wish on my worst enemy that had nothing to do with being TS... I learned to how survive, cope and go on despite everything... but the coping mechanism was not very healthy... I don't feel comfortable going into all of it here.

-Karen

Offline karen_A

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If you blame someone else for your problems then it is easy to avoid looking at what could very be the true source of that problem.

First i was speaking in general based on people I have met and known well.

Secondly you don't know me, or the fact that growing up I could only rely on myself...Combine that with teh fact that apparently can not be objective about people who don't hold your political views, again makes me think it best not to engage you in this thread.

There is no point and I got past the need to respond and argue in situations like this at least a decade ago.

-karen

Offline zirconia

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I have seen people say it's not necessary, or were militantly against it because of philosophical/ political considerations but I never felt they were teh majority.

You're obviously much more familiar with the transosphere than I am. I myself have been only on a very few forums and Reddit—and I guess they must have been a bit anomalous. On most it felt like I was the only one who spoke for passing and stealth. But then again, it may also be that the majority agreed with me and was just afraid to speak out.

If you are talking about stealth, depending on teh degree it is taken to,  and the individual's  situation/emotional makeup it can be...

Consider this. On another forum I have been on there was a very bright, very charismatic long term post-op who had quite a following.. What she advocated was not "telling" even someone you might marry. I know of several situations it coming out unexpectedly distorted marriages, and that really messed up both lives...

I was the only on for awhile who had an issue with her position and and argued with her about it... which made me a target for some of her acolytes.

My argument was we have no need to disclose to anybody unless and until people start making lifetime commitments like marriage ... then because of the possible consequences of it coming out unexpectedly, as well as the the potential corrosive effect of keeping that secret for decades from a life partner, to be fair to the partner, one should disclose then.

Well I was accused of saying that was telling the person you are not a woman, and that teh partner really did not want to know etc etc...

We should not HAVE deal with that, and the possible rejection of telling... It is very unfair... But it is what it is. This condition does not make life easy and means we have to deal with difficult things others do not.

At that point we were actually discussing passing. As for stealth... I guess I do understand how you feel.

And I really feel it should be up to each individual. Because it's that individual who lives with the results, regardless of choice.

A very wise woman I know once said "There are things in everyone's life they don't ever talk about. What he can never know will not hurt him." And that "can never" makes partial/mostly stealth an oxymoron. It's either or. And that is why I believe one should never try to coerce anyone to be out.

I view stealth like virginity. Once lost it cannot be recovered.

One question, though... I seem to recall you stayed married—right? Was the charismatic post-op also married? If so was her spouse a man or a woman? How about her followers? I'm curious, because I do believe our situations affect our feelings. Or do you see yours as having no bearing on your own thoughts?

I bring this up because when I first asked about sex with men, the most detailed advice offered came from pre-ops who were never planning to be with anyone other than their current female spouses. And the situations provided were hypothetical. LOL. And thus not based on experience.

That does not necessarily make what they said wrong... but given the words of those who have actually gone through and experienced what I have and will vs. those who haven't, it seems sort of natural to feel bias toward the ones with whom one has more in common.

Never trust want another TS says about your possibility... Often he response is related to about their own passability , or (if one does not pass well) they don't want to hurt your feelings... Only rely on the reactions of those that don't "know".

I did not believe the feedback I see on that thread... but remember for many that is an emotional minefield and it's best just to say what I said above.

LOL. Yes. Obvio. Your comment sounds very wise. Not that I'd want to offer any opinion in any case. Again, the only objective evaluator was probably driven off the site. And, since the subject came up, as an aside I simply can't understand why people post recognizable pictures online. Ever. Let alone in a thread with that name on a transgender site. I guess it just proves that to many stealth is not in the least important.

To some degree... social norms do that in terms of with whom and at what age people can have  sex... but not completely.

Can have sex? No way. Thirteen year olds at least here have it. All the time.

Should have sex... well, maybe. But who gets punished if they do? And for what? Hmmm...?



Laws are interesting. They can be used in many ways. But I'm leery whether they can nullify what nature has programmed into us.

That has not been most of my on-line experience... Most of my time on-line have been in primarily TS forums. Susan's is an aberration in that , which I looked into because my "home" forum for the last 20 years has been withering away for a number of years and is just about effectively dead.

My impressions are obviously based on just my own observations. Seeing that you have more experience I'm glad to hear you feel things aren't as bad as I've thought.

It is essential learning to be part of different culture with different rules and expectations...

Yes. Having grown up within several, often overlapping, it's an obvious, simple fact of life.

In principle but IMO not in degree.

This I'm afraid i don't understand

The societal expectations.

This I do. Yes. Again without question a simple fact of life.

I also grew up in horrible situation I would not wish on my worst enemy that had nothing to do with being TS... I learned to how survive, cope and go on despite everything... but the coping mechanism was not very healthy... I don't feel comfortable going into all of it here.

From your description of where and how you grew up I can perhaps conjecture a tiny bit. Most likely just a minuscule fraction... but it's enough. I'm glad you survived, and once again hope that you're now happy and at peace.  ٩(๑❛ᴗ❛๑)۶

---

P.S.
I just reread what I wrote... from the original post up to here. And since no-one's replied to this latest post as of yet, or broached the subject spontaneously, I guess this is a good place to also pose three questions that I now realize obviously must have been in my subconscious when I wrote the title.

Ignoring documentation—because that is mere paper—and keeping in mind our biological programming, what are the minimum criteria by which society may judge us to be normal women? Without qualifications.

What are the criteria based on which the community judges us to be Real Women?

And how do they compare?

Edit: Clarity, added questions
« Last Edit: July 06, 2020, 02:43:53 PM by zirconia »

Offline karen_A

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You're obviously much more familiar with the transosphere than I am.

Well teh online community of 15 to 20+ years ago. As I said in the last 20 years I was really only on one forum, and I have not been any part of 3D community  for about 19ish years... So much of my perspective is likely not current.

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On most it felt like I was the only one who spoke for passing and stealth.
There have been pitched battles with armies on both sides over that.. with neither side being shy about their opinions to say the least!

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At that point we were actually discussing passing. As for stealth... I guess I do understand how you feel.
To me they go hard in hand ... You can't have stealth without passing, and if you care about passing you tend to practice some degree of stealth, at least in some social circles.

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A very wise woman I know once said "There are things in everyone's life they don't ever talk about. What he can never know will not hurt him."

The thing is for TSes one can never be sure "he" will not find out in this modern connected world.

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And that is why I believe one should never try to coerce anyone to be out.
Again my belief is there is only one situation where I think there is moral obligation to be out... entering a commitment like marriage with someone else.  Outside of that, one's past is no one else's business be they friends or lovers.

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I view stealth like virginity. Once lost it cannot be recovered.
Considering one has to transition to be stealth, logically that is not necessarily true if one can pass well.

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One question, though... I seem to recall you stayed married—right? Was the charismatic post-op also married?
Before transition she was married to a woman (something she did not make well known). Afterwards she lived with a guy who did not know for several years until they broke up.

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How about her followers? I'm curious, because I do believe our situations affect our feelings. Or do you see yours as having no bearing on your own thoughts?

My situation (spouse and how much I cared about her and she me, my passibility, and age) had a strong affect on my actions... but not my feeling and what i wanted. But I am a survivor, and i survive by doing doing what I think is best for a situation rather than what I want , as well as what I think is right and honoring teh responsibilities I took on....

Sometimes that is very hard, but difficult situations seem to have been my lot in life... But I do survive.

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I bring this up because when I first asked about sex with men, the most detailed advice offered came from pre-ops who were never planning to be with anyone other than their current female spouses.




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Should have sex... well, maybe. But who gets punished if they do? And for what? Hmmm...?

Think incest.




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This I'm afraid i don't understand

In principle it is a change and change in life often means growth/learning... but changing sex in society is much bigger change socially in how people relate to you and how you are expected to relate to others, than most things in life... that is what I meant by degree.


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Ignoring documentation—because that is mere paper—and keeping in mind our biological programming, what are the minimum criteria by which society may judge us to be normal women? Without qualifications.

I think you have to speak at teh individual level... and I think for many, if they know and can process teh fact that some CAN change sex (big if), it will be what they see and experience... passibility combined with vibe.. If they can  NOT see or experience a trace of male they can sort of forget after while because most people live and react to what they experience in the moment.
 
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What are the criteria based on which the community judges us to be Real Women?

IMO there is a difference what they say and what they feel..in reality IMO it's the same as the rest of society. What they say can depend on their own situation and needs, as well as their trans politics.

-Karen

Offline Complete

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Degrees of "stealth".  Is that like "a little bit pregnant", or "almost" a virgin?"
No wonder trans-world is such a wonderful place. It's full of rainbows and unicorns and and infinite "spectrum" of....."everything"😂😜😜😜😜😜😰😰😰😰😱😱😱😫😩😵😵😵😲😲😟😖

Offline zirconia

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Well teh online community of 15 to 20+ years ago. As I said in the last 20 years I was really only on one forum, and I have not been any part of 3D community  for about 19ish years... So much of my perspective is likely not current.

OK.

There have been pitched battles with armies on both sides over that.. with neither side being shy about their opinions to say the least!

I guess that would make the venues I visited even more anomalous. While a very few people did thank me for stating how I personally felt and what I personally needed, it was mostly privately.

To me they go hard in hand ... You can't have stealth without passing, and if you care about passing you tend to practice some degree of stealth, at least in some social circles.

But of course. The original point was that there are a lot of people in "the community" who seem to laud those who feel even trying to pass to be detrimental. Let alone wishing to get assimilated... LOL.

The thing is for TSes one can never be sure "he" will not find out in this modern connected world.

Which I believe makes "old fashioned" quiet entry to stealth and assimilation, including a move to a new environment, all the more important if one does wish to keep private. And abstinence from "social media." Absolute change of all documentation. To achieve which I personally won't have qualms to even change nationality if necessary.

But... I do understand that it is not seen as important by most. I guess our needs and pain levels just vary.
 
Again my belief is there is only one situation where I think there is moral obligation to be out... entering a commitment like marriage with someone else.  Outside of that, one's past is no one else's business be they friends or lovers.

I do respect that moral stance, and would not ever try to persuade you to change your mind.

Considering one has to transition to be stealth, logically that is not necessarily true if one can pass well.

I see my words were not clear enough. To cut ties to the past even the first time takes significant effort. While you are correct in that starting anew will restore it, it can never be done in the same place. And to restore it to the same level would besides moving again require at the very least another name change. Changing social security numbers more than once would probably prove very difficult—and outside of exceptional circumstances would most likely require a change of nationality.

Before transition she was married to a woman (something she did not make well known). Afterwards she lived with a guy who did not know for several years until they broke up.

I see.

My situation (spouse and how much I cared about her and she me, my passibility, and age) had a strong affect on my actions... but not my feeling and what i wanted. But I am a survivor, and i survive by doing doing what I think is best for a situation rather than what I want , as well as what I think is right and honoring teh responsibilities I took on....

Sometimes that is very hard, but difficult situations seem to have been my lot in life... But I do survive.

Yes.



"Revealing one's past or condition obviously doesn't change one from a woman to a non-woman or vice versa. Just the way others relate. And how they categorize one."

To most others, but not all others. When you speak of people and their attitudes, there is huge variability. I know of several situations when marriage came up, and when they told, the guy had no clue and had to go away and process for while... but they did get married (of course I know of situations that went the other way too)

Did the guys continue to categorize the girls exactly the same after the revelation as they did before it?

Think incest.

I find it hard to believe that incest does not take place where the laws and mores prohibit it. Do you believe that to be the case?




In principle it is a change and change in life often means growth/learning... but changing sex in society is much bigger change socially in how people relate to you and how you are expected to relate to others, than most things in life... that is what I meant by degree.

If you're right I may yet experience what you describe. However, so far it's just felt like the constraints I always worked under have been lifted, and I can for the first time since I was tiny just be. I mainly feel relief at no longer having to think through my every movement, word and tone of voice. Or force myself to plan how I should behave to not seem out of place.

But, then again, it's only been less than two years since I gave up resistance and stopped correcting not only strangers, but also those with whom I knew I'd remain in contact. I'll have to face the learning I need when I do encounter the lessons that await me.

Be that as it may, I have always experienced what has happened after each move since I was born to not be part of that move, let alone any journey. We always knew where our new home would be. Rather, it was a necessary and natural part of acclimation to where we now were.

But of course setting off somewhere without yet knowing where that home is, and thus needing to spend time looking for it on arrival would create a different situation.

I think you have to speak at teh individual level... and I think for many, if they know and can process teh fact that some CAN change sex (big if), it will be what they see and experience... passibility combined with vibe.. If they can  NOT see or experience a trace of male they can sort of forget after while because most people live and react to what they experience in the moment.
 
IMO there is a difference what they say and what they feel..in reality IMO it's the same as the rest of society. What they say can depend on their own situation and needs, as well as their trans politics.

I guess we can mostly agree about most of these two statements. But I did mean society as a whole... not individuals.

And... for what it's worth, I've also found individuals who disbelieve one can change one's sex to be unable to believe the past boyhood part as well... LOL.

Edit: Clarity
« Last Edit: July 07, 2020, 03:17:27 PM by zirconia »

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Quote from: karen_A:
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... but changing sex in society is much bigger change socially in how people relate to you and how you are expected to relate to others, than most things in life... that is what I meant by degree
The above quote was part of a discussion on a thread, again by Zirconia, about "what is real". In my view this highlights the importance of context and personal perspective: ie, where one stands in relation to the question.
On the one hand Zirconia, describes her goal as "total and complete assimilation" into "the girl club".
On the other hand Karen describes her end goal as.... well honestly, I'll not presume to know,  but l am guessing it has worked out well enough.
Nevertheless, l will venture to say that their perspectives are different. One sees the transition as an absolute binary, transition. The other sees transition as a matter of degrees.

Offline karen_A

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But of course. The original point was that there are a lot of people in "the community" who seem to laud those who feel even trying to pass to be detrimental.

Well at least most forums where I have been, I have seem more people claiming that happens, then I have seen it happening... yes there is minority who believe stealth is bad for the community as whole, but from what I have seen they are a small minority. Most are "whatever works for you" types, with another minority that says if don't give up everything and throw away everybody that matters to you to try to be stealth, even if you don't pass well, then you are not only not a woman, but you are also not a "true TS"...

Both extremes are well extreme, and most people are not extreme.

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Which I believe makes "old fashioned" quiet entry to stealth and assimilation, including a move to a new environment, all the more important if one does wish to keep private. And abstinence from "social media." Absolute change of all documentation. To achieve which I personally won't have qualms to even change nationality if necessary.

If one transitions later in life (after one has had a life for awhile as male and married) there are surprising little things that can out you in this information age where everything is tracked and conputerized and never forgotten...

But you even have to worry about your medical records... If you were to marry and make your spouse your healthcare proxy (kind of expected), if you have an accident you could get outed...

I hand some abdominal issues and had a CAT scan done... Even though I am female on the records teh radiologist noted that was left of the internal male plumbing and could tell I had SRS and put i all into his reading of teh cat CAT scan... Externally it is a different story. I had a nurse practitioner in a GYN office do totally unnecessary PAP test on me as she did not know and could not tell even that close... The GYN told me afterwards about it. She said when she told the nurse I was a post-op she was surprised... but that she (the GYN) could tell.

While odds are you might not outed in a way that matters, In this day and age you really can not count 100% on NEVER being outed but something you did not expect.

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I do respect that moral stance, and would not ever try to persuade you to change your mind.

 From what I have heard if someone is outed to a spouse after marriage, the biggest thing they can not get past is the lack or trust in them, and that not telling them feels like a betrayal.

I understand very well teh extremely strong desire not to feel a perspective spouse, but I also understand very well how easy it to rationalize to oneself reasons reasons for doing what you want and matters very very much to you.

Everyone has to make their own decisions, but i would hope they would do some deep objective soul searching before making the decisions that considers only their happiness and  welfare  but also that of the perspective partner in a relationship that would hopefully last the rest other lives.

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To cut ties to the past even the first time takes significant effort. While you are correct in that starting anew will restore it, it can never be done in the same place. And to restore it to the same level would besides moving again require at the very least another name change.

 I've run into people who say they have done that.

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Changing social security numbers more than once would probably prove very difficult

I would imaging outside of federal witness protection it would be expertly difficult to do even once!

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"Revealing one's past or condition obviously doesn't change one from a woman to a non-woman or vice versa. Just the way others relate. And how they categorize one."

Most of the time with most people... but not always.

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Did the guys continue to categorize the girls exactly the same after the revelation as they did before it?
According to the woman, after the guys got over the initial shock, yes. People do mostly relate on the experiential rather than an intellectual level with others. The guys in those cases had only experienced and knew them as woman and that vibe (and physicality) was still there...

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I find it hard to believe that incest does not take place where the laws and mores prohibit it.

The point is that even though teh sex urge is not that discriminating, law and custom plays a big part in control behavior in a population... They can discourage or encourage things.
 

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But of course setting off somewhere without yet knowing where that home is, and thus needing to spend time looking for it on arrival would create a different situation.

There ar a lot of things about social roles the are totally societally defined and learned by living in society?

Girls can't do Math? Girls can't be engineer's? Girls can't work outside the house? And on and on.

SO many things that are untrue about girls were brought up to believe at one time, but boys were not... and visa versa...

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I guess we can mostly agree about most of these two statements. But I did mean society as a whole... not individuals.
And I would say the two are inextricably interrelated... There is a reason even when know the most passable tend to be accepted better in general when known as TS, even if not completely.

remember in most of these things I an speaking in general not about you specifically. I really don't know you so I can't form any opinions about you as an individual.

-karen

Offline zirconia

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Hi, Complete

Thank you... Yes. The moment I realized it was possible I had no other real choice. And to achieve that total and complete assimilation into the girl club I see no option other than to eliminate all that shackles me to being male. Leaving my male past behind is essential for the "without qualifications" part of my first question to come true. Both in the eyes of society as a whole, and individually.

As Karen said, getting read appends an asterisk. Not because of the being read itself, but because it evokes permanent otherness. And although I've found the otherness resulting from getting outed without being read "benign" in that it mostly results in curiosity and disbelief, it is just as impenetrable a barrier to normalcy.


Karen,

My second question was actually what "the community's" criteria for being a "Real Woman" are. But your reply seemed to address how its members in truth feel about what makes one normal. And in a sense the question itself is inane, because at least based on what I've seen "the community" seems to gladly designate anyone at all who lays claim to the label a Real Woman.

After all, any criteria other than "Anything goes, as long as you claim to firmly believe you're a woman" would nullify the Real Woman concept's usefulness to them. Or... have you seen anything that would indicate the contrary?


In the final say all of this no longer matters to me personally. I know my path, and it will take me ever farther away from the transosphere. In fact I already said goodbye once, and only returned because Dena opened this forum.


But since she did, I decided to write again.

Not to change anyone's mind about anything. Like me, everyone already in motion probably has a destination they want in mind and has chosen how they will get there. Not to even mention those who have already transitioned. LOL. That would be an utterly hopeless endeavor, as some have even found their home and comfort where the most distressing of my own nightmares were spawned.

And who am I to say they are wrong? What right would I have? They choose what they believe will make them happy. It's just that they're different. Different than me. And different than my sisters. As long as that is acknowledged I have no problem with even someone who looks like a silverback wearing fishnet stockings and a tutu in public, cursing the world for passing her by while waving her sparkly little handbag. She didn't seem very happy right then, but perhaps she was just having a bad day.

And in fact according to its own logic "the community" really should acknowledge that we are different. Because it claims to worship diversity. And diverse means different. The problem is that it then tries to neutralize those differences using an imaginary umbrella that it claims to encompass such completely different beings with completely different goals and motivations as that gorilla lady, Albanian sworn virgins and me. And says it makes us all the same.

Ugh.


So... I write mostly for those who just might be the way I was. Searching for a way out, hopelessly lost and confused. Lost because nothing people talked about on any forum seemed to make sense. And hopeless because the only destination offered me was the twilight zone. A horrible place where I could be absolutely anything I chose, but never what I needed. The price being that I could no longer lay claim to even what biology had doomed me to be. I'd be a transwoman. Forever.


I write to say something else than diversity is available too. Normalcy, that is.
It also has a price. A price not everyone can or is willing to pay. And unlike diversity the result is not guaranteed.

But... for me personally the risk is worth it. While I'm not there yet, I either will be, or will die trying.
Because now that I know normalcy does exist, for me to not even try to attain it would mean death as well.